Law makes babies cry

[JR4AU]

Explain the discrepancy between the number of students registering for school and the amount of tax dollars available for each school. 

Because we're being told that the explanation for lack of funding is the exorbitant amount of illegal immigrants being unaccounted for during registration. 

So maybe it isn't taxes.  Maybe the problem is that we don't know these kids are even in the area until they show up on the first, second, third, fourth day of school.  Or the third week.  Or whenever they decide to show up. 

And then suddenly they do show up needing the same amount of money the other kids in the classroom do. 

I also should have edited my post.  We don't have 76 known illegals in our school.  The number is right now at 221.

All I'm saying is, if they work, the vast majority pay taxes.  If you see them working in any legit business, they've most likely provided a SSN, and are cut taxes, and maybe even over pay because they don't file a return.  If they pay rent, they pay property tax the same wall all renters pay such taxes.  If they buy products, they pay sales tax.   All local state and federal agencies are hurting now...it's the economy.  People bitch and complain about the "illegals being a drain" but I see them working, and shopping.  IE earning a check where they're cut taxes, and spending money where they pay sales tax. 

And don't confuse me with arguing for letting them remain illegally, I'm just saying, many misconceptions are offered for why they should go back.  Use truth, and I have no problem with your arguments.

[Townhallsavoy]

Are you sure they all work? 

I'll give you a rundown of one of my current student's family:

- Dad works
- Oldest sister (senior in HS), my student (freshman), four younger kids (I think two are in elementary school)
- Mom and Aunt are housekeepers
- Grandfather lives at home (he may work.  not sure)
- They all live together in a trailer
- My student and her older sister are both on free lunch.  I assume the others are as well. 

This isn't an uncommon situation for many of the ESL students at my school.  That doesn't seem like a family that pumps a lot back into the economy. 

[JR4AU]

Are you sure they all work? 

I'll give you a rundown of one of my current student's family:

- Dad works
- Oldest sister (senior in HS), my student (freshman), four younger kids (I think two are in elementary school)
- Mom and Aunt are housekeepers
- Grandfather lives at home (he may work.  not sure)
- They all live together in a trailer
- My student and her older sister are both on free lunch.  I assume the others are as well. 

This isn't an uncommon situation for many of the ESL students at my school.  That doesn't seem like a family that pumps a lot back into the economy.

You cited 3 in the household that work for sure.  2 sound like they may get paid in cash. 

I assume they pay rent, power, water, and shop for groceries.   

Sounds to me like how many of the immigrant families that flooded in to NYC back in the day lived.  Hand to mouth, those that could contributed, while they carried the older and younger generations, with the younger generations getting an education.   

I work in a rural county that is majority white, almost no hispanics, and yet, many of the families are in the same situation.  A huge source of income where I work is a Social Security or Disability Check, and no ability to blame it on illegals. 

[Townhallsavoy]

Sorry I wasn't clear.  The Aunt and Mom stay home as housekeepers.  As in keepers of their own house.  I'm sure they contribute in some way in their neighborhood...err...park.  Maybe watch other families' kids.  Not sure. 

[JR4AU]

Sorry I wasn't clear.  The Aunt and Mom stay home as housekeepers.  As in keepers of their own house.  I'm sure they contribute in some way in their neighborhood...err...park.  Maybe watch other families' kids.  Not sure.

Show me one of these families drawing gubment checks, and I'll be there with you. 

When I'm in a grocery store, it's never the "illegal looking" ones paying with a WIC check.  The "illegal looking" ones always have a wad of cash.

[Snaggletiger]

I'm in full agreement with this law and is something long overdue.  However, the "long overdue" part means that there are going to be some growing pains, for lack of a better term, as we go forward.  As I believe THS said earlier, we have allowed ourselves to get in this situation and it's not as simple as loading up all the illegals and shipping them back from whence they came.

Some businesses will suffer in the short term.  Saw an article in the paper yesterday, which echos the sentiments of many down in my area.  Tomato farming in this State is one that (Right or wrong) relies heavily on immigrants as its chief work force.  Well, that work force has quickly exited stage left, leaving the farmers with a crop dying on the vine.  Their fault?  Maybe, but I'm here to tell you that the average American doesn't want the nasty sweat jobs and the work ethic of these illegals is 10X that of those available for hire. 

Good example came today when I talked to my contractor this morning. Guy is singing the blues because his framing crew just walked...in this economy.  I built my house 4-5 years ago.  My contractor told me, "You just wait until it's time to frame it...you'll be blown away" 

Why is that?

"Because my framing crew is a group of Mexicans and they work their asses off."  He was right and yes, I was blown away.  I saw them and other Mexican crews in my developing neighborhood working like ants from dawn til after dusk..Sunday to Sunday.  Ever since he told me that I started paying attention.  Was sitting on my back porch one Saturday afternoon, having a frosty cooooool one, watching this crew framing a house behind mine.  It was getting late and these guys were working at a fevered pitch and had no intentions of stopping until they couldn't see.  They'd be back to start again around 6:30 the next morning.  I stopped them.  Got in my car, went to the store and bought a throw away cooler and a case of beer.  Iced it down and drove up to that house, got out and set it down, giving them the thumbs up.  It was quittin' time....senor.

Me and my buddy have a Mexican guy who has been doing work for us for years.  Landscaping, construction whatever.  Exact same work ethic. No job too big or small or shitty.  He's begging for the work and will not stop until it's done.  He moved to Tennessee last week.  Again, going back to my first sentence, my point is I completely agree that the illegal immigrant problem is long overdue in being addressed.  It has to be.  But, it's not without a heavy backlash. And despite the fact that we can all pick out specific instances to the contrary, I'll wager Tarheels left nutt that the work ethic in the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants, more specifically Latino immigrants, is far greater than the average American citizen.  It's no wonder that there are a number of jobs  where the employer would much rather take his/her chances on that immigrant.  Does it make it right?  Nope.  They're taking that chance and some are paying dearly for it now.   

[GH2001]

All I'm saying is, if they work, the vast majority pay taxes.  If you see them working in any legit business, they've most likely provided a SSN, and are cut taxes, and maybe even over pay because they don't file a return.  If they pay rent, they pay property tax the same wall all renters pay such taxes.  If they buy products, they pay sales tax.   All local state and federal agencies are hurting now...it's the economy.  People bitch and complain about the "illegals being a drain" but I see them working, and shopping.  IE earning a check where they're cut taxes, and spending money where they pay sales tax. 

And don't confuse me with arguing for letting them remain illegally, I'm just saying, many misconceptions are offered for why they should go back.  Use truth, and I have no problem with your arguments.

Several of my customers employ illegals. Very manual labor type jobs. I can tell you this. They are NOT on the payroll. Most if not all of them get paid under the table. Ever went to a Chinese or Mexican resturaunt (where they have illegals working) , go to pay at the register and have them not actually ring it up on the register, but instead do it with a calculator? Thats the under the table money. Happens to me all the time in Columbus. I suspected that is what it was. I actually asked the owner of one place a few times since I knew him well (Chinese resturaunt). He flat out told me that half his guys weren't on the payroll since they weren't legal citizens and every 3rd or 4th transaction they ring up goes to pay those guys in cash (2 of them were from China, 3 were from Mexico - yes Mexicans working in a Chinese joint). He had no issue telling me this. My point is, most of them aren't officially on a payroll and therefore are paying no income taxes. It is what it is.

[JR4AU]

Several of my customers employ illegals. Very manual labor type jobs. I can tell you this. They are NOT on the payroll. Most if not all of them get paid under the table. Ever went to a Chinese or Mexican resturaunt (where they have illegals working) , go to pay at the register and have them not actually ring it up on the register, but instead do it with a calculator? Thats the under the table money. Happens to me all the time in Columbus. I suspected that is what it was. I actually asked the owner of one place a few times since I knew him well (Chinese resturaunt). He flat out told me that half his guys weren't on the payroll since they weren't legal citizens and every 3rd or 4th transaction they ring up goes to pay those guys in cash (2 of them were from China, 3 were from Mexico - yes Mexicans working in a Chinese joint). He had no issue telling me this. My point is, most of them aren't officially on a payroll and therefore are paying no income taxes. It is what it is.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  Fact is, the guy you asked would probably be cheating one way or the other, whether with illegals or other legal locals.   Hey, maybe I'm naive, but the fast food joints, the big chains, employ a lot of them around where I live.  Hard for me to believe they can get away with what you're describing with that many employees.  They'd have to "hide" half their gross revenue.

A buddy of mine employs many of them in his landscaping business, and not a single one is "off the books" and he claims they don't work cheap either.   The crews my father and brother employed all showed their "illegals" to be on the books and being cut too.  Did they secretly pay off the books?  Don't know.   

[JR4AU]

I'm in full agreement with this law and is something long overdue.  However, the "long overdue" part means that there are going to be some growing pains, for lack of a better term, as we go forward.  As I believe THS said earlier, we have allowed ourselves to get in this situation and it's not as simple as loading up all the illegals and shipping them back from whence they came.

Some businesses will suffer in the short term.  Saw an article in the paper yesterday, which echos the sentiments of many down in my area.  Tomato farming in this State is one that (Right or wrong) relies heavily on immigrants as its chief work force.  Well, that work force has quickly exited stage left, leaving the farmers with a crop dying on the vine.  Their fault?  Maybe, but I'm here to tell you that the average American doesn't want the nasty sweat jobs and the work ethic of these illegals is 10X that of those available for hire. 

Good example came today when I talked to my contractor this morning. Guy is singing the blues because his framing crew just walked...in this economy.  I built my house 4-5 years ago.  My contractor told me, "You just wait until it's time to frame it...you'll be blown away" 

Why is that?

"Because my framing crew is a group of Mexicans and they work their asses off."  He was right and yes, I was blown away.  I saw them and other Mexican crews in my developing neighborhood working like ants from dawn til after dusk..Sunday to Sunday.  Ever since he told me that I started paying attention.  Was sitting on my back porch one Saturday afternoon, having a frosty cooooool one, watching this crew framing a house behind mine.  It was getting late and these guys were working at a fevered pitch and had no intentions of stopping until they couldn't see.  They'd be back to start again around 6:30 the next morning.  I stopped them.  Got in my car, went to the store and bought a throw away cooler and a case of beer.  Iced it down and drove up to that house, got out and set it down, giving them the thumbs up.  It was quittin' time....senor.

Me and my buddy have a Mexican guy who has been doing work for us for years.  Landscaping, construction whatever.  Exact same work ethic. No job too big or small or shitty.  He's begging for the work and will not stop until it's done.  He moved to Tennessee last week.  Again, going back to my first sentence, my point is I completely agree that the illegal immigrant problem is long overdue in being addressed.  It has to be.  But, it's not without a heavy backlash. And despite the fact that we can all pick out specific instances to the contrary, I'll wager Tarheels left nutt that the work ethic in the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants, more specifically Latino immigrants, is far greater than the average American citizen.  It's no wonder that there are a number of jobs  where the employer would much rather take his/her chances on that immigrant.  Does it make it right?  Nope.  They're taking that chance and some are paying dearly for it now.

Pretty well my feelings and experience on it too. 

[GH2001]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  Fact is, the guy you asked would probably be cheating one way or the other, whether with illegals or other legal locals.   Hey, maybe I'm naive, but the fast food joints, the big chains, employ a lot of them around where I live.  Hard for me to believe they can get away with what you're describing with that many employees.  They'd have to "hide" half their gross revenue.

A buddy of mine employs many of them in his landscaping business, and not a single one is "off the books" and he claims they don't work cheap either.   The crews my father and brother employed all showed their "illegals" to be on the books and being cut too.  Did they secretly pay off the books?  Don't know.   

One of my customers (a recycling plant) has about 2 dozen mexican/guatemalan workers. Not a one of them on the books. This is the rule, whereas unfortunately I think the buddy of yours you speak of is the exception. If they are on the books, they are most likely legal in some form (H1B, etc) due to E Verify.  I don't mind them all being there to be honest. It's good business for me on one side of the coin. Also, ive talked to many of the guys - all workaholics and very cordial folks. You can tell they just want to work and live decently. But on the other side of the coin, we have to get this shit under control and straightened out. It's not personal. Lawbreakers need to pay the price and do things the right way. It's a huge strain on the economy and we have to have some way of knowing who in the hell is in our country.

[GH2001]

The work ethic in the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants, more specifically Latino immigrants, is far greater than the average American citizen. 

This is entirely correct, although the lazy American part is a whole other issue. That is due to the Entitlement state we live in. Everyone is owed something. And no one feels the need to work or do anything to get it. Sad.

It's no wonder that there are a number of jobs  where the employer would much rather take his/her chances on that immigrant.  Does it make it right?  Nope.  They're taking that chance and some are paying dearly for it now.

Although their work ethic is to be praised Snag, but I think we know why the employers prefer the illegals. $$$ Under the table means you can pay them what you want with no redtape, no minimum wage. Not saying I blame them, but that is the primary reason.

[JR4AU]

One of my customers (a recycling plant) has about 2 dozen mexican/guatemalan workers. Not a one of them on the books. This is the rule, whereas unfortunately I think the buddy of yours you speak of is the exception. If they are on the books, they are most likely legal in some form (H1B, etc) due to E Verify.  I don't mind them all being there to be honest. It's good business for me on one side of the coin. Also, ive talked to many of the guys - all workaholics and very cordial folks. You can tell they just want to work and live decently. But on the other side of the coin, we have to get this shit under control and straightened out. It's not personal. Lawbreakers need to pay the price and do things the right way. It's a huge strain on the economy and we have to have some way of knowing who in the hell is in our country.

I haven't talked to my landscaper buddy in a while.  The E Verify thing may have changed who he hires or the way he does things.  I know, he, like all other folks that employ them do so because they're reliable, and work their asses off at jobs they're otherwise hard pressed to fill.   My brother used to feel like so many here, but making a living is personal, and when his business got more productive when the jobs started getting done quicker, he changed his mind.  I suspect there's lots of good, decent small business owners out there that struggle to find reliable labor, and have resorted to using the illegals in order to keep their business running best.  In many ways the American laziness creates the opportunities that these illegals take advantage of. 

[JR4AU]

Although their work ethic is to be praised Snag, but I think we know why the employers prefer the illegals. $$$ Under the table means you can pay them what you want with no redtape, no minimum wage. Not saying I blame them, but that is the primary reason.

Again, just going by what I'm told, these folks generally don't work on the cheap.  You may can pay them slightly less if you're paying them off the books, but they don't work hard labor for minimum wage or less.   

[JR4AU]

One of my customers (a recycling plant) has about 2 dozen mexican/guatemalan workers. Not a one of them on the books.

Can you explain to me how they do this?  Do that take in a lot of cash that they don't declare?

[GH2001]

Can you explain to me how they do this?  Do that take in a lot of cash that they don't declare?

Yep, the same way those resturaunts I mentioned do it. Again, I don't blame em. But we have to get this shit under control.

[RWS]

Let's face it; if we rounded up every illegal worker right now and shipped them out, that would be a pretty big blow to the economy, imo. Unfortunately, we have become dependent on illegal labor because we have allowed it to go on for so long. And I think the notion that it will be very difficult and/or expensive to find Americans to fill those jobs that would be vacated is true. People have become dependent on the government teat, so why would they want to toil in the fields for 12 hours a day for minimum wage when the government will give them better money to sit on the couch and watch Springer all day?

On the other hand, how would it balance out not having those illegals using government giveaway programs? I would bet that a good bit of them aren't paying back into these programs since they are paid under the table. I guess it's a matter of who can better absorb the fucking......the government, or private businesses.

[CCTAU]

On the other hand, how would it balance out not having those illegals using government giveaway programs? I would bet that a good bit of them aren't paying back into these programs since they are paid under the table. I guess it's a matter of who can better absorb the fucking......the government, or private businesses

Therein lies the rub. If you don't think these people are getting gubment checks, you are crazy. Most illegals that work the restaurants came here legally and their visa ran out. Many were hired under the legal number. But None of them pay taxes. The employer pays his share and keeps paying even though the number has expired. Hopefully with the e-verify the employers know when the number is up.
I have a good friend that I coach with from Mexico. He is legal (as is his wife and kids), but his family is not. Many of them get gubment money. There are ways around it and the gubment don't care. My friend is a staunch conservative that wants all illegals to be sent back to do the right thing. Even though it wolill hurt his business. He is in the drywall business. You think there are a few illegals doing that?

[GarMan]

Let's face it; if we rounded up every illegal worker right now and shipped them out, that would be a pretty big blow to the economy, imo. Unfortunately, we have become dependent on illegal labor because we have allowed it to go on for so long. And I think the notion that it will be very difficult and/or expensive to find Americans to fill those jobs that would be vacated is true. People have become dependent on the government teat, so why would they want to toil in the fields for 12 hours a day for minimum wage when the government will give them better money to sit on the couch and watch Springer all day?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't fully agree.  It might be a shock, but it might also free up some employment opps for some willing-and-able legal inhabitants. 

[JR4AU]

Therein lies the rub. If you don't think these people are getting gubment checks, you are crazy. Most illegals that work the restaurants came here legally and their visa ran out. Many were hired under the legal number. But None of them pay taxes. The employer pays his share and keeps paying even though the number has expired. Hopefully with the e-verify the employers know when the number is up.
I have a good friend that I coach with from Mexico. He is legal (as is his wife and kids), but his family is not. Many of them get gubment money. There are ways around it and the gubment don't care. My friend is a staunch conservative that wants all illegals to be sent back to do the right thing. Even though it wolill hurt his business. He is in the drywall business. You think there are a few illegals doing that?

Are these things you have personal knowledge of, or simply choose to believe?

Did I read you correctly, your "legal friend" wants his "illegal family members" shipped home?

[CCTAU]

Are these things you have personal knowledge of, or simply choose to believe?

Did I read you correctly, your "legal friend" wants his "illegal family members" shipped home?

My legal friend's wife wants them to be refused FREE money. While she and her husband work their ass off, his illegal family receives gubment money. There are holes all in our system. It has been gamed by the minorities since the late 60's. Now even they are pissed off because the illegals are now gaming the system too. As far as being shipped home, she probably does. He would not complain. They are a drain on our economy and have been for over 20 years.
If you have ever had a friend or a family member need assistance, you would know how the system is geared toward minorities and away from others. It will take you longer to get what you need than it does a minority.

And yes, my neighbor owns a mexican restaurant. He explained to me how he ends up with illegals, but he keeps paying his share. He said he encourages them to pay taxes, but none do. Now with E-verify, I'm not sure how that works. If it is only on hire day, then the ones already there can still work and not pay taxes.