This whole debt ceiling thing

[GarMan]

I hate the man in office currently, I didn't think he was the answer then, and he has proved he isn't the answer now.  To me he is not a leader, he is a puppet and quite frankly I believe he is in over his head.  That being said this is also not all his fault, is he to blame for a lot of it yes.  He has had his own agenda from the beginning and his fiscal spending has been through the roof.  The problem as I see it is where do we go from here?  He definitely needs to be gone, but I am not crazy about the incoming class of Republicans either, and will it make a difference?  I don't have the answers.  People far smarter than me are supposed to, but they have to go campaign now. 

Barry is 2 1/2 years into his term...  His first deficit was $1.6T, and his second deficit was approximately $1.3T.  In just those first two years, he has exceeded eight years of GWB's cumulative overspending problem.  This is why the Re-puke-lickans have made such a big issue of it.  The Dems campaigned on fiscal responsibility, and they completely failed... 

BTW, the national debt is now at $14.5T.  Barry's last two deficits exceeded 10% of the national debt at the time he spent it.  It took us 50 years to get here, and he's already responsible for 20+% after only two years.  It's crazy to think how much spending has gotten out of control. 

[Townhallsavoy]

I agree that we should EXPECT 99% should not have to rely on gov't (probably closer to 95% but lets not argue), however you will never convince the vast majority of the people that currently live off gov't.  Just saying, good luck with your 99% argument

This isn't a persuasive forum.  I'm just simply discussing ideology. 

[Snaggletiger]

Let me interject one thing.  We MUST find a way to get this ass clown out of office. 


That is all

[GarMan]

Let me interject one thing.  We MUST find a way to get this ass clown out of office. 


That is all

But, he's been so successful...  Seriously...  Barry knows exactly what he's doing.  Has there been anyone else in the history of this country who has turned a free market economic system upside down so quickly? 

[GH2001]

But, he's been so successful...  Seriously...  Barry knows exactly what he's doing.  Has there been anyone else in the history of this country who has turned a free market economic system upside down so quickly?

Fdr, but it took longer.

[AUTiger1]

But, he's been so successful...  Seriously...  Barry knows exactly what he's doing.  Has there been anyone else in the history of this country who has turned a free market economic system upside down so quickly?

Carter?

Love the leadership he has shown during this.  So glad that he got on TV and said.........uh......um...........?

Those vacations are a bitch.

[GarMan]

Carter?

[AUTiger1]

I said about a year ago that somewhere Carter is letting out a big sigh of relief that he won't go down as the worst President in history.

[RWS]

I think my biggest problem with this administration is how their solution to everything is to throw money at it, and sticking the government's nose in the private sector where it doesn't belong. Maybe I just don't get it. Maybe that really is the best solution. I just don't see how it could be. It's like they don't know how to fix a problem, so they use the shotgun approach and say "Oh well, uhhhh.....give them some money. Yeah, that will work!" You can't create something permanant with a short term band-aid. That's what killed me with the part of the stimulus package that was to fund "shovel ready" construction projects, and create millions of jobs. Even in theory, it made no sense. At best, it was going to create a shit-ton of TEMPORARY jobs. When the construction job is finished and work dries up, guess what? You're right back to square one. And that's where we are right now.

After all of the TARP money, we are nearly right back where we were. Unemployment is still high. The housing market is still in the shitter. To me, it seems the economy is trying to be normal. For so long it was pumped up by things that weren't real. Has it ever occured to anybody that this IS what our economy should be like? This IS the reality of it? Maybe in reality, a 1700 sq. ft. house SHOULD cost $100,000. Not a ridiculous $200,000. And that's not really the government's fault, but the prices should be market driven; as in, driven by buyers. However, the government is trying to keep it as it was. In my opinion, the government has made everybody think within the box THEY created. I'm not a big anti-government nut or anything, but why should we think the way things were are normal? Who is to say what is normal and what isn't?

To me, normal is when a business can't stay in business any longer, they fail. They close. If you're not doing enough business to sustain, either you need to change how you do business, or the consumer has spoken and said they don't need or want your product. Normal is free market, where the consumers decide what will work and what doesn't. That's not what's happening now. I just don't understand it.

Am I just crazy?

[AUJarhead]

Am I just crazy?

Nope, just racist like the rest of us.

[GarMan]

After all of the TARP money, we are nearly right back where we were. Unemployment is still high. The housing market is still in the UATter.

Well, things are actually worse today than they were when the Chosen Boy took office.  Most of his actions either did nothing to improve the overall situation or worsened the situations that existed.  TARP was merely used as his constituent rewards program... 

[GH2001]

I think my biggest problem with this administration is how their solution to everything is to throw money at it, and sticking the government's nose in the private sector where it doesn't belong. Maybe I just don't get it. Maybe that really is the best solution. I just don't see how it could be. It's like they don't know how to fix a problem, so they use the shotgun approach and say "Oh well, uhhhh.....give them some money. Yeah, that will work!" You can't create something permanant with a short term band-aid. That's what killed me with the part of the stimulus package that was to fund "shovel ready" construction projects, and create millions of jobs. Even in theory, it made no sense. At best, it was going to create a shit-ton of TEMPORARY jobs. When the construction job is finished and work dries up, guess what? You're right back to square one. And that's where we are right now.

After all of the TARP money, we are nearly right back where we were. Unemployment is still high. The housing market is still in the shitter. To me, it seems the economy is trying to be normal. For so long it was pumped up by things that weren't real. Has it ever occured to anybody that this IS what our economy should be like? This IS the reality of it? Maybe in reality, a 1700 sq. ft. house SHOULD cost $100,000. Not a ridiculous $200,000. And that's not really the government's fault, but the prices should be market driven; as in, driven by buyers. However, the government is trying to keep it as it was. In my opinion, the government has made everybody think within the box THEY created. I'm not a big anti-government nut or anything, but why should we think the way things were are normal? Who is to say what is normal and what isn't?

To me, normal is when a business can't stay in business any longer, they fail. They close. If yo #winningu're not doing enough business to sustain, either you need to change how you do business, or the consumer has spoken and said they don't need or want your product. Normal is free market, where the consumers decide what will work and what doesn't. That's not what's happening now. I just don't understand it.

Am I just crazy?

Everything you see is a result of too much govt intervention. And yes they directly affect the price of everything due to our monetary system. They have caused inflation by devaluing the currency. Price of goods goes up but spending power goes down or remains the same. That combo causes stagflation which is a real dilemma. We never had issues such as these when true supply side economic policies were in place. Only govt centered economic policies cause these conditions.

You have to be real careful when using the phrase "spending helps recovery". It does. But not govt or public spending. Citizen spending drives the economy. And its real currency earned, not borrowed. It boggles me how many citizens in this country would rather get their basic economic understanding from a hope and change speech, rather than history and genuine economic theory.

[GH2001]

Well, things are actually worse today than they were when the Chosen Boy took office.  Most of his actions either did nothing to improve the overall situation or worsened the situations that existed.  TARP was merely used as his constituent rewards program...

Correct. Credit rating down, unemployment up 1.5%, value of dollar down, gdp stagnant.

[GarMan]

Correct. Credit rating down, unemployment up 1.5%, value of dollar down, gdp stagnant.

Just to clarify...  That's more like a 1.7% of additional unemployment rates or nearly a 25% increase since he took office. 

[RWS]

Just to clarify...  That's more like a 1.7% of additional unemployment rates or nearly a 25% increase since he took office.

But, is that a bad thing? Sure, it's bad that people are out of jobs. Which means they are probably depending on some sort of government subsidy. But what were those jobs? Were those jobs that were created in the fist place for some bullshit reason that wasn't even needed, thus considered expendable? That's where I'm coming from. Maybe that is the job market stabilizing itself in the correct way. Maybe that is a sign that companies are putting forth better operating plans, to where they have realized consumers aren't spending as much, so they don't need as much workforce. Like it or not, unemployment is a portion of what a free market economy is. How right would it be for the government to again throw a bunch of money (that doesn't exist, mind you) to create jobs based on.....nothing. Companies just hiring people to, again, do something meaningless that the company doesn't even need. How does that make things better in the long run?

That's kind of my entire point, really. Sorry if I'm being confusing. We have learned that throwing money at this whole thing will not fix it. It won't create lasting jobs. It won't fix things long term. It is a waste. And all at the same time while we are throwing as much money as we can at every little problem, we devalue the dollar that much more, and drive up our debt that much more. For absolutely nothing. 

[RWS]

Citizen spending drives the economy. And its real currency earned, not borrowed.

This, people. This. Right. Here.

Real people. Real money. Spending that money everyday on real goods at real businesses. THAT is what drives the economy.

I think alot of what angers me is what I've seen my father-in-law go through. He has owned a very successful machine shop since around 2004. He is so responsible with his money, it isn't even funny. His bread and butter is making parts for a large international company that builds those shiny CO2 tanks you see our behind every restaurant or fast food place. When the economy tanked, and construction stopped, that means restaurants stopped expanding, and that meant they were not buying these tanks. Which means they aren't buying his parts to build new tanks. In turn, that meant my father-in-law was pretty much dead in the water. He laid off every employee, including my wife. He had no choice. He ended up not even taking a paycheck for a year. Most days, there was barely enough work to keep him alone busy

He didn't go to the government or anybody looking for a handout. Through sound business practices, and making quality products over the years, he had made alot of money and saved up a cushion for the business, and also a cushion personally. He had the foresight to look ahead and know that something may happen, whether it be a hurricane, economic downturn, etc, that may endanger his business. He had a solid business plan to pull through if he had to. He and his business always operated within their means. Today, business has returned and with 2-3 back working, he can barely keep up. His business model has always been don't make a shitty product, charge a reasonable price, and you will keep a consistant customer base. Very simple.

Maybe all of these larger businesses, such as automakers, etc are alot more complex than my father-in-law's machine shop. They probably are. I just can't help but wonder, if my 50-something father-in-law with a bachelors degree can make this work on a smaller level, how the fuck can the highly educated CEOs not work this shit out? It's just aggrivating. 

[AU_Tiger_2000]

Citizen spending drives the economy. And its real currency earned, not borrowed. It boggles me how many citizens in this country would rather get their basic economic understanding from a hope and change speech, rather than history and genuine economic theory.

That's probably why so much of the citizen spending in the country isn't real currency but borrowed also.

[Saniflush]

This, people. This. Right. Here.

Real people. Real money. Spending that money everyday on real goods at real businesses. THAT is what drives the economy.

I think alot of what angers me is what I've seen my father-in-law go through. He has owned a very successful machine shop since around 2004. He is so responsible with his money, it isn't even funny. His bread and butter is making parts for a large international company that builds those shiny CO2 tanks you see our behind every restaurant or fast food place. When the economy tanked, and construction stopped, that means restaurants stopped expanding, and that meant they were not buying these tanks. Which means they aren't buying his parts to build new tanks. In turn, that meant my father-in-law was pretty much dead in the water. He laid off every employee, including my wife. He had no choice. He ended up not even taking a paycheck for a year. Most days, there was barely enough work to keep him alone busy

He didn't go to the government or anybody looking for a handout. Through sound business practices, and making quality products over the years, he had made alot of money and saved up a cushion for the business, and also a cushion personally. He had the foresight to look ahead and know that something may happen, whether it be a hurricane, economic downturn, etc, that may endanger his business. He had a solid business plan to pull through if he had to. He and his business always operated within their means. Today, business has returned and with 2-3 back working, he can barely keep up. His business model has always been don't make a shitty product, charge a reasonable price, and you will keep a consistant customer base. Very simple.

Maybe all of these larger businesses, such as automakers, etc are alot more complex than my father-in-law's machine shop. They probably are. I just can't help but wonder, if my 50-something father-in-law with a bachelors degree can make this work on a smaller level, how the fuck can the highly educated CEOs not work this shit out? It's just aggrivating.

This is the kind of folks I want to do business with.  What kind of machines does he have?

[RWS]

This is the kind of folks I want to do business with.  What kind of machines does he have?

4 axis Mazak mill, 2 Okuma lathes, all of which are CNC of course. Then he has some old manual Okuma lathes, which he says are sometimes more exact than a CNC machine, depending on what you're trying to do. Between all of those and his bigass automatic bandsaw, he has like 10 pieces of equipment. He used to make parts for the Navy's LCAC hovercraft until that program kind of fizzled somewhat. He's been at it like 30+ years. Does all of his own program writing and everything. When the tank company he makes parts for wants him to do a new part, they give him a print with dimensions and what they want it made out of. Generally, he wants to see what it goes on and how other parts on the tank interact with his part so he has a good understanding, but he comes up with the programming for it like it's no big deal.

[Snaggletiger]

This lawn supervisor was out working on a sprinkler maintenance job when he started working on a Findlay sprinkler head with a Langstrom 7" Gangley Wrench.....