Saban: Recruiting Men of Character

[Townhallsavoy]

Based on the number of similar type cases I work...I'd have to concur.  It's not only how much easier it is to get a BJ or laid than it was in my day, but girls seem to be jumping at the chance to have their pics or vids made while doing it.

But the repercussions are still the same as when it was in your day.

Yes, Token.  9th graders are highly fragile.  We deal with this every year with multiple girls.  They start getting involved sexually, and it damages their ability in the classroom.  It damages their personal life. 

Our counseling center is flooded every year with 9th and 10th grade girls who have recently had sex or performed oral sex. 

And again - 9th graders are highly impressionable.  Especially when they're at a high school with juniors and seniors.

A senior convinces a girl she'll be "cool" if she sucks his dick when in fact he doesn't care about her at all.  The difference in maturity between a senior and a freshman is a chasm.  Mentally, physically, and psychologically, a 9th grader is a mere child compared to the senior who is soon to go off to college. 

By no means can you convince me that the senior is in "love" with his 14 year old girlfriend.  That it's a sacred, intimate moment shared between two consenting people. 

A 9th grade girl is incapable of understanding the slightest notion of intimacy.  She just wants to be accepted and popular.

If you think acceptance and a desire to be popular qualify as coherent consent, then congratulations.  You're contributing to the moral depravity of our society. 

[JR4AU]

But the repercussions are still the same as when it was in your day.

Yes, Token.  9th graders are highly fragile.  We deal with this every year with multiple girls.  They start getting involved sexually, and it damages their ability in the classroom.  It damages their personal life. 

Our counseling center is flooded every year with 9th and 10th grade girls who have recently had sex or performed oral sex. 

And again - 9th graders are highly impressionable.  Especially when they're at a high school with juniors and seniors.

A senior convinces a girl she'll be "cool" if she sucks his dick when in fact he doesn't care about her at all.  The difference in maturity between a senior and a freshman is a chasm.  Mentally, physically, and psychologically, a 9th grader is a mere child compared to the senior who is soon to go off to college. 

By no means can you convince me that the senior is in "love" with his 14 year old girlfriend.  That it's a sacred, intimate moment shared between two consenting people. 

A 9th grade girl is incapable of understanding the slightest notion of intimacy.  She just wants to be accepted and popular.

If you think acceptance and a desire to be popular qualify as coherent consent, then congratulations.  You're contributing to the moral depravity of our society.

Agree.

[Godfather]

I realize there's a interwebz war being waged between UA and AU right now.  I can respect the fact that this story is more fodder for the arsenal, but if any of you people really believe that a senior getting a blowjob from a freshman is rape....or child molestation, then I'm questioning the reasoning ability of you people. 

And for the record, I do not believe it to be possible for someone to be made to give a blow job.  Daddy's little girl got caught talking about sucking and needed an out.

Who are you calling "you people"?

[Godfather]

Based on the number of similar type cases I work...I'd have to concur.  It's not only how much easier it is to get a BJ or laid than it was in my day, but girls seem to be jumping at the chance to have their pics or vids made while doing it.

and I say God Bless'em

[Godfather]

Where is Uncle Sani, he knows these laws in and out.

[AWK]

Where is Uncle Sani, he knows these laws in and out.

Old Barrister Sani!

[djsimp]

I can tell you, my oldest daughter is only 5 and I can tell you that the law is not the worse thing some 18 yr (or any age for that matter) dipshit should fear. This daddy right here has a wild imagination and can surely change the course of life for said dipshit. Not to mention, my two little girls will have a whole lotta big sombitches that look out for them.

[Token]

If you think acceptance and a desire to be popular qualify as coherent consent, then congratulations.  You're contributing to the moral depravity of our society.

And if you think charging an 18 year old with a sex crime and having him register for the rest of his life because some emotionally unstable 14 year wanted to be accepted, congratulations.  You're contributing to the demise of the judicial system and are simultaneously costing tax payers millions of dollars because of a blow job.

[Godfather]

And if you think charging an 18 year old with a sex crime and having him register for the rest of his life because some emotionally unstable 14 year wanted to be accepted, congratulations.  You're contributing to the demise of the judicial system and are simultaneously costing tax payers millions of dollars because of a blow job.

Snaggle sees your millions and offers billions, just for someone to blow on it.

[Townhallsavoy]

And if you think charging an 18 year old with a sex crime and having him register for the rest of his life because some emotionally unstable 14 year wanted to be accepted, congratulations.  You're contributing to the demise of the judicial system and are simultaneously costing tax payers millions of dollars because of a blow job.

Well that's a straw man if I've ever seen one. 

So you're admitting that it's 100% a sex crime.  Correct? 

And if so, how would you have the judicial system handle it? 

Remember, we're not just talking about punishing an 18 year old for getting a blow job.  We're talking about an 18 year old enabling psychological instability in another human being. 

Your point is a slippery slope.  What other crimes do you deem too insignificant to be addressed by the judicial system? 

Would you agree to vigilantes taking care of sex offenders? 

[JR4AU]

And if you think charging an 18 year old with a sex crime and having him register for the rest of his life because some emotionally unstable 14 year wanted to be accepted, congratulations.  You're contributing to the demise of the judicial system and are simultaneously costing tax payers millions of dollars because of a blow job.

Should they be branded the same way we brand "real child molesters"?  No.  That part of the law is all fucked up.  Should it be legal for an 18 year old to mentally/emotionally coerce 14 year old chicks to have sex?  No.

[AUChizad]

First of all, it was enough to get him kicked off the LSU team.

And he should have been.

To me, there's a world of difference between an 18 year old getting busted for participating in consensual sex (oral or otherwise) with his 16 or 17 year old girlfriend, and forcing a 14 year old through "oral sexual battery".

Like Townhall said there is a chasm in the maturity level between a 14 year old and an 18 year old. Same with a 17 and a 13 year old.

[Snaggletiger]

I'm sorry, what?  Did someone say millions?

I see both sides of this argument. My daughter is now 20 so I guess she can give all the schlobbers she wants.  In the environment she grew up in as far as school and people she hung with, I never had many worries about that.  Not being naive, she just wasn't "boy crazy" and focused more on dance etc. than dating. 

This law however, is a joke.  I fully undersatnd the need to protect young and impressionable yutes.  But, times they have a changed and kids nowadays are far, far more knowledgable and active than we were.  Not saying it's right but that's the way it is.  At the time I was at Jeff Davis, it was 10-12 and was the largest high school in the State at that time.  About 2,400 students.  If you were dating someone and sexually active, that was one thing.  But as far as the number of girls who you pretty much knew they would....you know..do it...you could count on one hand. Not the case anymore.

If an 18 year old hooks up with a 15 year old, he/she shouldn't have to pay for it the rest of their life. You have to be able to make a distiction between what's consensual and what's out of bounds.  Not some cut and dried age rule.   

[Townhallsavoy]

Should they be branded the same way we brand "real child molesters"?  No.  That part of the law is all fucked up.  Should it be legal for an 18 year old to mentally/emotionally coerce 14 year old chicks to have sex?  No.

I agree with this.  No need to make his register as a sex offender unless he actually held her down and forced himself into her. 

[Godfather]

Y'all are makin Sani excited

[Token]

Well that's a straw man if I've ever seen one. 

Hell, after your authoritarian statements made about the emotional state of all 9th grade females, I thought fallacies were cool in this argument.

So you're admitting that it's 100% a sex crime.  Correct?

Uh, yes.

And if so, how would you have the judicial system handle it?

If you're asking "how will the system handle it?" I'd say it rocks for a while, and if he makes the NFL, the family will take a payoff.  If he doesn't, he'll end up being charged, being registered and will probably not spend any time in jail whatsoever.

If you're asking "how would I handle it if I ran the system?"  I say it isn't a crime.  Of course, I say that under my presumption that she willingly went into the locker room, willingly dropped to her knees, and willingly accepted a pearl necklace.

We're talking about an 18 year old enabling psychological instability in another human being.

Says you.  I say she wanted to suck a dick and was caught.

Your point is a slippery slope.  What other crimes do you deem too insignificant to be addressed by the judicial system?

I have a few in mind, but I don't see how that's relevant to this one situation.

Would you agree to vigilantes taking care of sex offenders? 

  No, I believe we aren't strict enough on sex offenders.  And I never, at any point, said sex offenders shouldn't be handled in the judicial system.  I said an 18 year getting a blow job from a consenting 14 year old shouldn't be a crime.

[Townhallsavoy]

Hell, after your authoritarian statements made about the emotional state of all 9th grade females, I thought fallacies were cool in this argument.

Authoritarian?  Do you even know what that means?

I simply gave you an example of what we've experienced the last 5 years.  It's a case study.  9th grade girls who are sexually active face issues that girls who are not sexually active do not. 

It even coincides with our PRIDE surveys (not sure what PRIDE stands for) that we give at the end of the year.  The percentage of girls who mark that they are sexually active coincides with the number of girls dealing with issues based on being sexually active. 

Education isn't just filled with prudes who want to keep kids from having fun.  Research based studies guide our character development, and we focus on drugs, alcohol, community service, and sex. 

Unfortunately, some are strongly pushing for sex to be taken out of character development, and it just doesn't work. 

And besides, according to reports, the girl claims she was pressured into giving oral sex.  There is never a time - no matter the age - where pressuring a girl to perform oral sex is acceptable. 

[Tiger Wench]

I don't think a 14 yo girl has the ability to "consent" to much of anything - they are incredibly mentally immature, regardless of what they may look like physically.  They may not be as innocent as they were back when we were young, but knowing what it means to give a blow job and actually being coerced into doing it are two different things.  Having been a teenaged girl myself once, I know how much pressure a guy can put on you to do things - fear of my parents was really the only reason I had the strength to say no.  And, to be honest, fear of my father was probably the only reason the guys did not push harder.

If a 14 yo is as mature as an 18 yo, then let 14 year old kids vote and drive a car and register for the draft.  There has to be a line drawn, and the age of adulthood in this country, for the most part, is 18.

I agree that an 18 yo boy should not have to register for having sex with his 17 yo gf.  Texas has passed a law that says the age range can be no more than 3 yrs to prevent the pissed off father syndrome.  But even so, 14 is still too young to be having sex of any kind with an 18 yo.  NO WAY does that girl have the capacity to consent, regardless of how many times she subsequently does something.  Does a 7 year old have the capacity to consent when her funny uncle touches her?  There is not a lot of difference here from an emotional or mental state.

[Token]

Authoritarian?  Do you even know what that means?

I simply gave you an example of what we've experienced the last 5 years.  It's a case study.  9th grade girls who are sexually active face issues that girls who are not sexually active do not. 

It even coincides with our PRIDE surveys (not sure what PRIDE stands for) that we give at the end of the year.  The percentage of girls who mark that they are sexually active coincides with the number of girls dealing with issues based on being sexually active. 

Education isn't just filled with prudes who want to keep kids from having fun.  Research based studies guide our character development, and we focus on drugs, alcohol, community service, and sex. 

Unfortunately, some are strongly pushing for sex to be taken out of character development, and it just doesn't work. 

And besides, according to reports, the girl claims she was pressured into giving oral sex.  There is never a time - no matter the age - where pressuring a girl to perform oral sex is acceptable.

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but I ask.  Are they sexually active because they choose to be or because they are all being raped?  That's the issue at hand.  If they are sexually active, it's because they choose to be.  And if they choose to perform sexual acts, they shouldn't be allowed to go back and press charges once they are caught.

I realize what the report says.  But I also realize that a report will say anything a victim wants it to say, true or false.  If he has a half way decent attorney, he'll walk without charges.  Because if she's sexually active, I doubt this was her first blow job.  And if it's proven that she consented to the blow job, it won't matter, because the law says she's not old enough to consent.  THAT is bullshit.  And, if he had received the blow job when he was 17, even if it were the day before, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  THAT is bullshit.

Correction, in Louisiana, it is only cool to have sex as a 15 yo if the other party is 15, 16, or 17.  So we would still be having this conversation if he was 17 and she was 14.  And for the record, I'm not saying that we should be alright with 18 yo's having orgies with 14 yo's.  I'm saying if the 14 yo is consenting, then we shouldn't be charging sex crimes to 18 yo kids, especially when they both attend highschool.

[Townhallsavoy]

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but I ask.  Are they sexually active because they choose to be or because they are all being raped?  That's the issue at hand.  If they are sexually active, it's because they choose to be.  And if they choose to perform sexual acts, they shouldn't be allowed to go back and press charges once they are caught.

Your argument goes like this:

1.  In order to be sexually active, one must choose to participate in the sexual act. 
2.  If one does not choose to participate in a sexual act but is forced to, it is rape.
3.  Most 9th grade girls choose to participate in sexual acts.
4.  Most 9th grade girls are not raped. 

My argument goes like this:

1.  9th graders do not have the maturity to understand or handle being sexually active and are harmed if they choose to participate in a sexual act.
2.  In order to be sexually active, one must choose to participate in the sexual act.
3.  12th grade boys do have the maturity to undersand and handle being sexually active.
4.  The onus is on the 12th grade boy to not provide the opportunity for the 9th grade girl to choose to participate in a sexual act.
5.  12th grade boys who do provide the opportunity for the 9th grade girl to choose to participate in a sexual act have taken advantage of the 9th grade girl's maturity. 
6.  The 9th grade girl is harmed by the sexual act.
7.  The 12th grade boy has willingly participated in an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited (crime). 

While you claim that the 9th grade girl is capable of making decisions on her own, don't forget that the 12th grade boy is just as capable.  If there's even the slightest inclination that she's uncomfortable with it, why pressure her? 

And if empirical data shows that 9th grade girls are effected negatively by participating in sexual acts, why grant leniency to the 12th grade boy who provided the opportunity? 

I realize what the report says.  But I also realize that a report will say anything a victim wants it to say, true or false.  If he has a half way decent attorney, he'll walk without charges.  Because if she's sexually active, I doubt this was her first blow job.  And if it's proven that she consented to the blow job, it won't matter, because the law says she's not old enough to consent.  THAT is bullshit.  And, if he had received the blow job when he was 17, even if it were the day before, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  THAT is bullshit.

The nuances of the law are difficult to swallow (ha!), but the law is the law. 

If it's established as law, then it's the job of the boy to know and understand the law. 

If the law is erroneous in nature, then these debates shouldn't be sparked by specific cases.