Obama's Latest Speech

[Townhallsavoy]

Gist of one of Obama's points: The Republicans only want to implement cuts and don't want the wealthiest Americans and corporations to have any responsibility for the national debt. 

Is this true?

[Snaggletiger]

Gist of one of Obama's points: The Republicans only want to implement cuts and don't want the wealthiest Americans and corporations to have any responsibility for the national debt. 

Is this true?

I actually watched both Obomanu's speech and Boners response.  No way they get a deal done in my opinion.  Two completely different approaches.  Obewon's whole deal is that the only way to cut the deficit is to tax the "wealthy" even harder.  Basically, it was a campaign speech.

Boehner (sp?) said no way.  The gubment spending is out of control and it has to stop. 

[Townhallsavoy]

I understand their points of view. 

What I don't understand is when Obama accused Republicans of wanting to continue a policy that allows the wealthy corporations to go untaxed. 

One of the biggest premises used in wanting to change taxes is that the rich get off scott-free. 

Is that true? 

[GarMan]

I understand their points of view. 

What I don't understand is when Obama accused Republicans of wanting to continue a policy that allows the wealthy corporations to go untaxed. 

One of the biggest premises used in wanting to change taxes is that the rich get off scott-free. 

Is that true?

Some points...
- The United States has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world at 36%. 
- The top 1% of tax payers pay nearly 40% of all personal income taxes yet earn less than 20% of all federally reported personal income.

This is nothing other than class envy/warfare where they demonize the successful with the hopes of maintaining power.  If they can convince enough of the ignorant masses, it will work. 

[AUTiger1]

I actually watched both Obomanu's speech and Boners response.  No way they get a deal done in my opinion.  Two completely different approaches.  Obewon's whole deal is that the only way to cut the deficit is to tax the "wealthy" even harder.  Basically, it was a campaign speech.

Boehner (sp?) said no way.  The gubment spending is out of control and it has to stop.

I am not going to say that there is not going to be a tax increase, more than likely will, but what Boehner is saying is the only thing that is making sense right now.

We spend way too much money and if we keep going we are all fucked.  Upper, middle and lower.   Part of the problem is that all politicians want to get re-elected and keep that office.  It's going to take some unselfish action form our congress to step and make the tough and non popular decisions on what to cut.

[GH2001]

I understand their points of view. 

What I don't understand is when Obama accused Republicans of wanting to continue a policy that allows the wealthy corporations to go untaxed. 

One of the biggest premises used in wanting to change taxes is that the rich get off scott-free. 

Is that true?

No it is not. Garman summed it well. We already have a progressive tax code, which is technically unconsitutional as we are to only have an apportioned tax on GAINS. Anyone making even decent money or above is already getting nailed for roughly a third of their paycheck or more. The ones who make the most are already taxed the most. By a country mile. This is rhetoric for his naive constituency to swallow hook, line and sinker.

Those big bad rich white people. Shame on them for earning their dollar with hard work and intuition. Let's take that money since they have plenty. As garman said, its class warfare.


Pffffffttttt.

[GarMan]

I am not going to say that there is not going to be a tax increase, more than likely will, but what Boehner is saying is the only thing that is making sense right now.

We spend way too much money and if we keep going we are all effed.  Upper, middle and lower.   Part of the problem is that all politicians want to get re-elected and keep that office.  It's going to take some unselfish action form our congress to step and make the tough and non popular decisions on what to cut.

We should not compromize.  The Cut, Cap and Balance plan is perfect.  Taxing the wealthy...  Taxing corporations...  That's just the opposite of what we need in a slow economy. 

[GH2001]

We should not compromize.  The Cut, Cap and Balance plan is perfect.  Taxing the wealthy...  Taxing corporations...  That's just the opposite of what we need in a slow economy.

It isn't when you are purposefully trying to drive the free market off of a cliff. Then the state will control everything. Just like these goons want. To control the means of production and elements of life. Socialism. These commies don't want the private sector doing anything. Think about it.

[Vandy Vol]

Sort of related to the topic, the tax code needs to be cleaned up.  Tax rates may or may not need to be dropped, but there is a lot of shit in the tax code that is complicating everything.

As an example, corporations have relatively high taxes.  But, they don't necessarily pay the amount in taxes due to a variety of deductions, exemptions, credits, and other useless shit that we really wouldn't need if we'd just lower some of the tax rates.  A few years ago, I think it was a little more than 50% of American companies didn't have to pay anything in taxes due to the absurd number of tax breaks.

Ultimately, the tax system needs to be simplified.  In addition to cutting spending, of course.

[GH2001]

Sort of related to the topic, the tax code needs to be cleaned up.  Tax rates may or may not need to be dropped, but there is a lot of shit in the tax code that is complicating everything.

As an example, corporations have relatively high taxes.  But, they don't necessarily pay the amount in taxes due to a variety of deductions, exemptions, credits, and other useless shit that we really wouldn't need if we'd just lower some of the tax rates.  A few years ago, I think it was a little more than 50% of American companies didn't have to pay anything in taxes due to the absurd number of tax breaks.

Ultimately, the tax system needs to be simplified.  In addition to cutting spending, of course.

Damn, I'm at a loss here vv. Agree totally.

But I think we can guess why we pay the taxes up front (quarterly, every paycheck, etc) and then get some back later. Basically the government is getting interest free borrowing money all during the year. They give a lot if it back to the citizens during filing season, but interest free. If we just flattened the tax and simplified the taxcode, the govt wouldnt , in their minds, get as much of a revenue stream during the year. It's bs. I'm with you - simplify it and deal with it. At the least it needs to be apportioned and not progressive.

[GarMan]

Sort of related to the topic, the tax code needs to be cleaned up.  Tax rates may or may not need to be dropped, but there is a lot of poop in the tax code that is complicating everything.

As an example, corporations have relatively high taxes.  But, they don't necessarily pay the amount in taxes due to a variety of deductions, exemptions, credits, and other useless poop that we really wouldn't need if we'd just lower some of the tax rates.  A few years ago, I think it was a little more than 50% of American companies didn't have to pay anything in taxes due to the absurd number of tax breaks.

Ultimately, the tax system needs to be simplified.  In addition to cutting spending, of course.

Hold me...
 

The tax code is nothing short of gubm'et socio-economic engineering.  While the corporations might have an absurd amount of deductions, many of those deductions are designed to offset expenses thrown on them by the government in the first place.  I'm really just saying that the government needs to get back to its core purpose and stay out of our way. 

[GH2001]

Hold me...
 

The tax code is nothing short of gubm'et socio-economic engineering.  While the corporations might have an absurd amount of deductions, many of those deductions are designed to offset expenses thrown on them by the government in the first place.  I'm really just saying that the government needs to get back to its core purpose and stay out of our way.

Someone cue Born in the USA.......

[Townhallsavoy]

So essentially, the best solution would be a perfect compromise.

Reduce the "variety of deductions, exemptions, credits, and other useless shit."
Heavily cut spending.
Make everyone pay taxes. 
Cut spending.
Cut spending again. 

What's truly absurd is how much government spends and controls.  But it is we the people who enable them. 

[Vandy Vol]

Hold me...
 

The tax code is nothing short of gubm'et socio-economic engineering.  While the corporations might have an absurd amount of deductions, many of those deductions are designed to offset expenses thrown on them by the government in the first place.  I'm really just saying that the government needs to get back to its core purpose and stay out of our way.

The complexity of the tax code with all of its tax breaks has led Americans to be professional tax evaders.  Most developed countries collect almost twice in corporate tax than America (proportional to each country's GDP, of course).

If we just got rid of the options for tax evasion and made companies and people pay flat rates, then there would be fewer chances for evasion and more chances for collection.  I'd even venture to say that the overall amount of taxes collected would increase.

[AUTiger1]

We should not compromize.  The Cut, Cap and Balance plan is perfect.  Taxing the wealthy...  Taxing corporations...  That's just the opposite of what we need in a slow economy.

Not saying we should compromise, just saying get ready for a tax hike.  I think they will do it.

Cut spending, cut some more spending, then cut a little more spending.  Once you do those three things, go back in and cut a little more.   We can't continue on this spending spree that we have been on for the past 10 or 12 years.  It has to stop or we are seriously fucked.  I know I sound like Glen Beck on that, but goddamint congress, STOP YOUR SPENDING!!!

I work in the DoD field as a contractor,  we hire people, who do nothing but sit at a desk, read a book, paper or magazine all day long for 4 days out of 5.  Honest to god.  We have to hire those people, b/c the more people we hire, the more we can charge the Gov't and the Gov't allows it.  There are ways to make cuts in defense spending and things like that without killing a company, sacrificing anything for our troops, and things of vital importance.   

hit on something to irks me as well, our tax code, toooooo fucking complicated.  Scrap that shit, give me my entire salary and gives us a consumption tax.   Oh, that illegal that was paid cash for pouring your concrete driveway, if that fucker shops at Wally World then he will have to pay his fair share. 

[AUTiger1]

What's truly absurd is how much government spends and controls.  But it is we the people who enable them.

Ding, Ding Ding!  It is also "we the people" that need to open our eyes and send almost all of them home packing.  There are some good ones up there that are trying to do the right thing, but they are few and far between.  Most are just worried about hanging on to their seat and the power and perks that come with it. 

[AUTailgatingRules]

Gist of one of Obama's points: The Republicans only want to implement cuts and don't want the wealthiest Americans and corporations to have any responsibility for the national debt. 

Is this true?

THS, please click here and watch this short 9 min video.  Then come back here and let me know if you now understand why SPENDING CUTS are the only way to correct this mess.

http://www.tigersx.com/forum/the_sga/eat_the_rich_quotshould_be_required_listening_everyonequot_14557.0.html

[GarMan]

The complexity of the tax code with all of its tax breaks has led Americans to be professional tax evaders.  Most developed countries collect almost twice in corporate tax than America (proportional to each country's GDP, of course).

If we just got rid of the options for tax evasion and made companies and people pay flat rates, then there would be fewer chances for evasion and more chances for collection.  I'd even venture to say that the overall amount of taxes collected would increase. 

And, you were doing so well...  As an attorney, you of all people should know the difference between evasion and avoidance.  Don't confuse the terms.  Evasion is illegal.  Avoidance is encouraged. 

The average effective corporate tax rate in the United States is greater than 25%, so your suggestion that most other counties collect more is simply false.  Add to that, the portion of payroll taxes that employers must pay for their employees.  And on top of that, most states also collect taxes from corporations.  After you sum everything, the average effective tax burden on corporations in America can easily exceed 35-45%. 

[Vandy Vol]

And, you were doing so well...  As an attorney, you of all people should know the difference between evasion and avoidance.  Don't confuse the terms.  Evasion is illegal.  Avoidance is encouraged.

Oh, trust me, they've become experts at tax evasion as well.  I do represent these people, afterall.

The average effective corporate tax rate in the United States is greater than 25%, so your suggestion that most other counties collect more is simply false.

This study, which includes the graph shown below, indicates that the amount of corporate taxes as a percentage of the GDP is lower than all other nations.  This reflects the amount of taxes actually collected, as opposed to general tax rates which don't take into account deductions.

While most other nations do have lower corporate tax rates, they've also gotten rid of many deductions and loopholes, whereas the U.S. has increased them.

Add to that, the portion of payroll taxes that employers must pay for their employees.

Well, yes, but if we're still talking about the top 1% of earners, then it's worth mentioning that they pay only 4.1% of federal payroll taxes.  But if you're referencing this tax merely to point out that it's arbitrarily present for the purpose of collecting more taxes from businesses, then yes, I agree.

And on top of that, most states also collect taxes from corporations.  After you sum everything, the average effective tax burden on corporations in America can easily exceed 35-45%.

Yes, the rates themselves are higher.  But these rates are only applied to your taxable income.  When you factor in all of the deductions that are available, your taxable income decreases.  Again, this is why the U.S. actually collects less corporate taxes (and all taxes in general) as a percentage of GDP than other countries.

[GH2001]

Oh, trust me, they've become experts at tax evasion as well.  I do represent these people, afterall.

This study, which includes the graph shown below, indicates that the amount of corporate taxes as a percentage of the GDP is lower than all other nations.  This reflects the amount of taxes actually collected, as opposed to general tax rates which don't take into account deductions.

While most other nations do have lower corporate tax rates, they've also gotten rid of many deductions and loopholes, whereas the U.S. has increased them.



Well, yes, but if we're still talking about the top 1% of earners, then it's worth mentioning that they pay only 4.1% of federal payroll taxes.  But if you're referencing this tax merely to point out that it's arbitrarily present for the purpose of collecting more taxes from businesses, then yes, I agree.

Yes, the rates themselves are higher.  But these rates are only applied to your taxable income.  When you factor in all of the deductions that are available, your taxable income decreases.  Again, this is why the U.S. actually collects less corporate taxes (and all taxes in general) as a percentage of GDP than other countries.

Youre actually right. The more simple and flat they make the tax code, the less people can and want to evade. The revenues WILL go up.  So why doesn't he do it? When you can get more by requiring less, then why not do it? The guy has some serious issues.