Rest In Piss...

[Snaggletiger]

Jack Keee-Vor-Kee-An

[CCTAU]

Actually I applaud Dr. Kevorkian. His actions gave dialogue to an increasingly volatile argument. We have, through medicine, increased the lifespan of many people who should already be dead. Some that have their lifespan increased live a longer happier life. Others are just kept alive to endure more pain. Daily pain affects every system in the body. At some point in time, these people know they should already be dead. Enduring excruciating pain is not living. It is, at best, existing. The human race exists. Individuals LIVE.

I do not feel like he was an evil man, but a truly compassionate man. Most doctors know when a patient is out of the realm of their help. At that time, they can only watch as a patient suffers in agony. The alternative is to give too much pain medicine and risk the wrath of the so-called righteous.

I hope that with his passing, the idea of assisted suicide does not die with him. Until we have the benefit of "Star Trek" type cures, we can only hope that those in pain can find enough joy out of life to make it worth it. When it is not worth it any longer, they should be able to come to death under their own terms. And there should be a path for this.


http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/06/03/jack-kevorkian-controversial-assisted-suicide-advocate-dies-at-83/?xid=rss-topstories

[Tiger Wench]

What CCT said. 

[Snaggletiger]

Or maybe he got his rox off putting people to sleep.  Still a creepy bastard.

[Buzz Killington]

The real irony is that he COULD have died a month earlier...

[Snaggletiger]

The real irony is that he COULD have died a month earlier...

I was waiting.  You didn't disappoint

[GarMan]

Actually I applaud Dr. Kevorkian. His actions gave dialogue to an increasingly volatile argument. We have, through medicine, increased the lifespan of many people who should already be dead. Some that have their lifespan increased live a longer happier life. Others are just kept alive to endure more pain. Daily pain affects every system in the body. At some point in time, these people know they should already be dead. Enduring excruciating pain is not living. It is, at best, existing. The human race exists. Individuals LIVE.

I do not feel like he was an evil man, but a truly compassionate man. Most doctors know when a patient is out of the realm of their help. At that time, they can only watch as a patient suffers in agony. The alternative is to give too much pain medicine and risk the wrath of the so-called righteous.

I hope that with his passing, the idea of assisted suicide does not die with him. Until we have the benefit of "Star Trek" type cures, we can only hope that those in pain can find enough joy out of life to make it worth it. When it is not worth it any longer, they should be able to come to death under their own terms. And there should be a path for this.   

   Sorry man...  What's this feel crap? 

I completely disagree.  Your assessment does not appreciate or consider that we cannot create or restore life at will.  We still do not really understand it, and whether you believe in a supreme being or a some scientific "big bang" explanation, life is something to be protected and preserved at all costs, at least to the extent that it does not risk the lives of others.  Survival is a basic natural instinct, and virtually everything we do is designed to preserve, improve or benefit life to some degree. 

You're assuming that a life in pain is not worth living...  Since Doctor Death originally fueled the debate, we have discovered several new procedures and new medications for dealing with the excruciating pain that you reference.  I have no doubt that there is still some pain threshold that would make life unbearable even with the newly discovered treatments, but once a life is terminated, it cannot be restored.  Life is not some trivial concept that we can just turn-on or off at will.  Physiologically speaking...  If you're truly in that much pain, your body will eventually shut itself down anyway, even with the life saving medications that are administered by the doctors. 

Finally, the concepts of living versus existing that you reference are very subjective.  If we use your perception of excruciating pain, is it not possible for that person to continue experiencing the same motivations, sensations and experiences as an individual who is not in pain? 

[CCTAU]

It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.

So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?


Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.

[Aubie16]

Very well said, CCTAU.

[GarMan]

It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.

So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?

Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.

I'm not deciding for anyone.  That's the problem with these positions.  If I don't drink the koolaide, accept AND condone this reprehensible act unconditionally, I'm somehow imposing my will on others.  That's not my opinion at all.  I really don't disagree with your position if there truly is no hope or options, but let's not bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life.  If you want to end it, man-up, grow a set and do it yourself.  Make sure you dive off a building, head first, that's at least 3 stories tall...  Or, use a 357 aiming the barrel towards the roof of your mouth when pulling the trigger...  Or, use a sharp knife with enough force to sever tendons and muscles along with some critical arteries... 

I'm suffering too.  Until I own a Bugatti, Ferrari or a Lambo, I'm just existing...  Oh, the pain... 

And, I've known several who have experienced that excruciating pain at the end or what was thought to be the end of their lives.  Relatively recent, my grandmother was given less than 3 months to live for nearly a decade.  She suffered-on to experience and participate in her grandchildren's high school graduations, college graduations and even marriages.  By the way, she also experienced two heart-attacks, two strokes and an aggresive resurgence of a metastasized breast cancer that spread throughout her body.  To rob or deny herself of those experiences, even the bad ones, was never an option.  Fear of death has less to do with this than the coward's fear of life. 

[CCTAU]

You still don't get it.

Unbearable pain is the pain that will NEVER go away that is too much to bear. If you can bear it, then there is no need for assisted suicide.

And how thoughtful of those individuals to have their family clean up their brain matter just because they "had the balls."

If a person feels the need to end their life, then they should have the right to be able to choose a dignified way to go.

The choices you give have no dignity associated with them at all. The people that have sought assistance with their suicides are not people that just up and decided a few days ago that they cannot go on. These are people that have been fighting this pain for years. These are the same people that have had "the balls" to live with the pain as long as they can.

You are being hysterical thinking that there will be an "assisted" suicide hotline that folks who call the suicide hotline can be transferred to.

[GH2001]

It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.

So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?


Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.

THIS...all of it.

[GarMan]

You still don't get it.

Unbearable pain is the pain that will NEVER go away that is too much to bear. If you can bear it, then there is no need for assisted suicide.

And how thoughtful of those individuals to have their family clean up their brain matter just because they "had the balls."

If a person feels the need to end their life, then they should have the right to be able to choose a dignified way to go.

The choices you give have no dignity associated with them at all. The people that have sought assistance with their suicides are not people that just up and decided a few days ago that they cannot go on. These are people that have been fighting this pain for years. These are the same people that have had "the balls" to live with the pain as long as they can.

You are being hysterical thinking that there will be an "assisted" suicide hotline that folks who call the suicide hotline can be transferred to. 

Oh, I get it.  That's just it.  There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise.  It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not.  Unbearable pain may be an excuse to justify the decision, but those situations are extremely rare and becoming even more rare over time with advances in healthcare and medicine.  It's a hypothetical situation that doesn't hold true for the NEVER go away duration. 

I just don't know how much longer I can hold on without a Ferrari.  I'm only existing... 

[wesfau2]

Oh, I get it.  That's just it.  There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise.  It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[GH2001]

Oh, I get it.  That's just it.  There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise.  It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not. 

An act that is none of anyone else's business. That is the point CCT is getting at. If I am suffering and I want to die by my own terms, what is it ANY of yours or the government's business? I thought you, out of all people, would be anti-gubment on this one.

[Tiger Wench]

Oh, I get it.  That's just it.  There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise.  It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not.  Unbearable pain may be an excuse to justify the decision, but those situations are extremely rare and becoming even more rare over time with advances in healthcare and medicine.  It's a hypothetical situation that doesn't hold true for the NEVER go away duration. 

I just don't know how much longer I can hold on without a Ferrari.  I'm only existing...

Those "advances in healthcare and medicine" are part and parcel of the reason why people are turning to choosing their right to die on their own terms.  Sometimes - many times - the treatment is worse than the disease.  And all the treatment might do is buy some additional time, but what good is additional time if you are too sick or swollen to enjoy it?  I would rather spend my last days off the treatment, stoned on pain meds as necessary, at home with my pets and surrounded by family and friends, and slip off quietly into that good night on my own terms, than to be in some hospital, hooked up to tubes, losing all my hair, dropping down to 90 lbs of skin and bones because the chemo makes me too sick to eat, watching my friends and family suffer right along with me.  Medicine may keep my body alive far longer than God intended - and if it is my time to go, I want to go on my own terms, and at peace.

You are totally off the mark on this one, Gar Man.  My life, my choice as to when to end it.  None of your damn business, or the government's either.

[AU_Tiger_2000]

My life, my choice as to when to end it.  None of your damn business, or the government's either.

But apparently it is your life insurance company's business as typically there is no payout for suicide.

[GarMan]

An act that is none of anyone else's business. That is the point CCT is getting at. If I am suffering and I want to die by my own terms, what is it ANY of yours or the government's business? I thought you, out of all people, would be anti-gubment on this one. 

I'm fine with that.  I'm all about the personal responsibility.  By all means, do it yourself, but as said before, don't bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life.  That's not dignity, and that's the biggest issue I have with this. 

There's also an understood assumption that these individuals are of sound mind when they're experiencing this unbearable excruciating pain that they can no longer live with...  If you slam your hand with a sledge hammer a few times, let me know if that excruciating pain enables you to make sound decisions, especially those that would potentially end your life and affect those around you.  I don't believe that any of you are being honest if you believe that. 

[Tiger Wench]

But apparently it is your life insurance company's business as typically there is no payout for suicide.

I am not talking suicide because I broke a nail and got a speeding ticket.

If I am already terminal, then overdosing on a prescribed pain med would be the path to take.  Odds are good that no autopsy would be performed, as death would not be unexpected given my condition, and finding elevated levels of a prescription pain med would not be unexpected either.   My father and I have already reached an understanding with one another on this issue.  No tubes, no hospitals, no needless suffering, no wasting away.

And not all policies have a suicide exclusion - our company life insurance does not, and I know this to be true because a few months ago, we had an employee who was having marital troubles commit suicide in a company truck via a freight train.  And his wife got the full payout plus all benies.

[Tiger Wench]

I'm fine with that.  I'm all about the personal responsibility.  By all means, do it yourself, but as said before, don't bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life.  That's not dignity, and that's the biggest issue I have with this. 

There's also an understood assumption that these individuals are of sound mind when they're experiencing this unbearable excruciating pain that they can no longer live with...  If you slam your hand with a sledge hammer a few times, let me know if that excruciating pain enables you to make sound decisions, especially those that would potentially end your life and affect those around you.  I don't believe that any of you are being honest if you believe that.

You are REALLY trivializing this.  If I slam my hand with a hammer, I know that despite the pain, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  It will not hurt forever.  My brain can deal with that, and there is no lasting impact on my ability to reason cognitively and make decisions.  I have had multiple major abdominal surgeries, and the healing of those muscles is exquisite agony, especially those first few weeks.  But I know I will heal, and it gets better.  I had no more doubt about my mental capactiy to reason than under normal circumstances, even though I was in serious pain.

But constant, excruciating pain, with no end in sight, with no hope of release or relief, will wear down your soul.  I am not about to lie in a bed being eaten away inch by inch by some metasticized form of cancer from which I have no hope of recovery just so someone at my funeral can babble a meaningless platitude to my family that I "fought the good fight". 

If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will do it.  I don't think Dr. Death talked these people into anything they did not want to do themselves, and in at least one case, would have done themselves if they had been physically able to do so.  He did not prey upon the weak minded.  Every single one of those people who died on his watch did so because they wanted to, and every single one of them was already dying, and would ultimately have died of their disease - he just hastened the process.