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Yet another "law of unintended consequences"

Vandy Vol

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Re: Yet another "law of unintended consequences"
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2011, 05:06:16 PM »
We don't know.  These products have NOT had the opportunity to be proven in mass use applications for lighting. [Do I sound like a parrot yet?]  We only know that these LEDs have similarities and differences to LEDs of other designs, styles and purpose.

And that's fine.  However, I don't see any need to halt productions and suspect that there are additional health risks associated with these bulbs simply because the gap size has increased, the solid metal used as a semiconductor has changed, etc.  I'm fine with these products being further tested, but based upon the fact that A) testing has occurred, and health hazards seem to be minimal and on par with comparable products, and B) the design contains much of what other current LEDs contain, I don't see any reason to say that they're not ready for consumer purchases.  At least, not without going back and also saying that other LEDs already on the market are not ready for consumer purchases.

The document that you finally posted in your last message proved that your $15B annual savings was actually a forecast for 2030.

Which is still an eventual $15 billion savings annually.  I don't think I ever said anywhere that it would be an instant reduction of $15 billion in energy savings, only that the ultimate switch to more cost efficient bulbs would result in that amount of savings.

So, let's stick it to Joe Sixpack and Suzie Homemaker.  That makes a lot of sense!

Joe Sixpack is a closet homosexual, and Suzie Homemaker is the town whore.  Aside from that, I never said that the government should mandate anything.  In fact, I said that this mandate was far too early, and probably not even necessary down the road.  Government intervention may need to take place years down the road, but it likely should not have to be in the form of any mandate.  My response was merely to your hyperbolic hypothetical that if the government had to pass legislation on this, that it would somehow prevent them from having the time to pass legislation on more beneficial issues.

Now, you're even playing the numbers like a crooked politician.  Your $15B savings was over-inflated.  Your average annual savings of $6B is even incorrect, particularly for the first several years.  And finally, there's minimal accounting for the investment required to purchase these new technology lights as well as the periodic expenses for failure replacements and other activities.  If you're not being intentionaly dishonest, you don't really understand how to adequately analyze this.

It's not my estimate, but regardless, what is the reason for the reduced savings in 2010 - 2030?  My guess would be that they've taken into account the initial investments.  I can't find a full report which details how they got the figures, but the consumption of electricity would decrease once the bulbs have been replaced.  It's not as if an LED bulb will initially use the same amount of electricity as an incandescent bulb, and will only decrease it's consumption over the following 20 years; the energy consumption would be immediately reduced.  Thus, the only logical conclusion I can make based upon the scant figures we're given is that the initially lower savings increase over time after the initial costs have been recuperated.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 05:16:24 PM by Vandy Vol »
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GarMan

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Re: Yet another "law of unintended consequences"
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2011, 05:41:46 PM »
And that's fine.  However, I don't see any need to halt productions and suspect that there are additional health risks associated with these bulbs simply because the gap size has increased, the solid metal used as a semiconductor has changed, etc.  I'm fine with these products being further tested... 
By all means, produce away...  But, don't ask Big Brother to ban the most common products on the market of safe and proven technologies for some theoretical fantasy or misguided fetish with green technology. 

Which is still an eventual $15 billion savings annually.  I don't think I ever said anywhere that it would be an instant reduction of $15 billion in energy savings, only that the ultimate switch to more cost efficient bulbs would result in that amount of savings.
Your statements definitely implied that.  And, this cumulative savings over several years is a common smoke-and-mirrors trick used by crooked politicians.  The savings are virtually insignificant over any duration when compared to the total cumulative spend by the irresponsible thugs in DC. 

Joe Sixpack is a closet homosexual, and Suzie Homemaker is the town whore.  Aside from that, I never said that the government should mandate anything.  In fact, I said that this mandate was far too early, and probably not even necessary down the road.  Government intervention may need to take place years down the road, but it likely should not have to be in the form of any mandate.  My response was merely to your hyperbolic hypothetical that if the government had to pass legislation on this, that it would somehow prevent them from having the time to pass legislation on more beneficial issues.
So, you and Joe have something in common, and Suzie sucks a mean nut.  So, leave her alone!  It's not that the government wouldn't have time to focus on anything else; it's more about this ridiculous mandate affecting everyone at a time when those funds and energies should be focused elsewhere. 

It's not my estimate, but regardless, what is the reason for the reduced savings in 2010 - 2030?  My guess would be that they've taken into account the initial investments... 
Again, the run rate of these bulbs has not been proven on the open market.  They can claim whatever they want with regard to life right now.  I experienced nothing like the claims out of my trials of the CFLs and have some carpet and fixture damage on top of it.  And, both products are marketed by the manufacturer. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

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chinook

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Re: Yet another "law of unintended consequences"
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2011, 06:59:55 PM »
vandy and gar must be burning candles...

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GarMan

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Re: Yet another "law of unintended consequences"
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2011, 07:16:54 PM »
vandy and gar must be burning candles... 
Only scented... 

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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand