Our Beloved Former President Carter...

[Saniflush]

Can't we all just kill some raghead motherfucka's?

[Tarheel]

My initial purpose for this thread was to point out that Carter was meeting with Hamas!  Hamas IS a terrorist organization and while they may be the 'elected' leaders of Gaza (after they took over Gaza in what amounts to a military coup supported by Iran and Syria) they are NOT the elected leaders of the Palestinians.  If Carter wants to help the Palestinians shouldn't he be meeting with Mahmoud Abbas, the elected President of the Palestinian National Authority in the PNA capitol of Ram-Allah, West Bank? 

Which begs the obvious problem; any kind of peace can't be negotiated until the "Palestinians" can elect one representative government...not one government in the West Bank and another renegade, terrorist controlled government in Gaza and/or the Golan Heights.  Hamas should not have been enpowered or even recognized by Carter!

"Peace in our time"...indeed.

(Very interesting debate AWK and GarMan...sorry that I missed it...been out of town and away from teh ebays and the intarwebs.)

[GarMan]

I agree with you that it will never happen unless somethings drastically change, i.e. stop blowing yourself up and killing innocent civilians.  I am just hypothetically saying it wouldn't be a bad idea eventually.  IF, they change.  However, it doesn't seem like that will happen in the next 43,454 years. 

Hypothetically speaking, there are a lot of things that wouldn't be bad ideas in the Wunderfool Utopian World of Liberal La-La-Land (aka Crystal Halls of Left-Wing Acedemia). 

[AWK]

Hypothetically speaking, there are a lot of things that wouldn't be bad ideas in the Wunderfool Utopian World of Liberal La-La-Land (aka Crystal Halls of Left-Wing Acedemia). 

The same land of WMD's and Yellow cake?

[GarMan]

The same land of WMD's and Yellow cake?

Psssst...  We did find WMDs in Iraq, but don't expect for the mainstream media to make that a front page story for everyone to read. 

"Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist." 
- Sen. Rick Santorum

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

I suppose that you'll now reply with...
Oh, that's just "faux" news.  They're not a credible news source.  And, and, and, that's a Republican Senator.  Of course, he's going to lie.

But, you still won't be able to dispute the actual facts.   

[Tarheel]

The same land of WMD's and Yellow cake?

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there Hoss on the Yellow cake reference.  Here's a quote from an article by Christopher Hitchens on the subject:

...
Now turn to the front page of the June 28 [2004] Financial Times for a report from the paper's national security correspondent, Mark Huband. He describes a strong consensus among European intelligence services that between 1999 and 2001 Niger was engaged in illicit negotiations over the export of its "yellow cake" uranium ore with North Korea, Libya, Iraq, Iran, and China. The British intelligence report on this matter, once cited by President Bush, has never been disowned or withdrawn by its authors. The bogus document produced by an Italian con man in October 2002, which has caused such embarrassment, was therefore more like a forgery than a fake: It was a fabricated version of a true bill.
...

Here's a link to the full article:

http://www.slate.com/id/2103795/

This article appeared in 2004 but since then no evidence that Iraq had not been negotiating with Niger has been produced despite the fact that the Bush Administration has not confronted the Plame's about their political agenda in this matter...and the Brits have not backed down on their supporting report on this subject.  And this article has not been editorialized or corrected by the publishers.

Here's an article that appeared in 2005:

...
British intelligence found out through multiple sources that representatives of the Iraqi government had met with officials from the Niger government.

This fact is not in dispute. The mystery is in what they talked about. A memo obtained by the British — later proven to be a forgery — purported to show the Iraqis were interested in purchasing 500 tons of yellow cake uranium from Niger's mines. Forgery or not, since Niger's exports are extremely limited, consisting largely of uranium ore[/], livestock, cowpeas, and onions, one doesn't have to be an intelligence analyst to figure out in which one of those items the Iraqis might be interested.
...

Here's the link:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/07/about_that_500_tons_of_yellow.html

And here's an interesting Time-Line published on this subject; but what is interesting is this excerpt:

...
On 24 September 2002, the British issued a white paper which stated: "[T]there is intelligence that Iraq has sought the supply of significant quantities of uranium from Africa." (50)
...

The writer of this Time-Line cites the Senate report on this matter entitled "REPORT ON THE US INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ"

Here's a link to the Time-Line:
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/niger.htm
(This is primarily for the Plame issue but is relevent to your reference.)

And here is the link to the Senate intelligence report:
http://uspolitics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=uspolitics&cdn=newsissues&tm=15&gps=120_229_1436_747&f=20&tt=2&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/ssci_iraq.pdf

[DnATL]

between 1999 and 2001 Niger was engaged in illicit negotiations over the export of its "yellow cake" uranium ore with North Korea, Libya, Iraq, Iran, and China

To paraphrase Dave Chappelle (as Rick James)
"They should have never given those Niger-s uranium!!"

[AWK]

Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.

Using reading comprehension, they still haven't found them.  And buddy, I don't care if you give me the greatest source in to world, the hoopla made up about WMD's never even came close to being realized. 

And the Uranium, Did they actually find Uranium in Iraq?  No.  I could say you have bought Uranium, then point to the fact that a counttry has been exporting it.  That logic makes no sense and lacks as much credibility as Michael Moore's crapshoot propaganda films.  Unless they actually find the Uranium, you can't honestly say that we went to war on credible intel. 

[GarMan]

Using reading comprehension, they still haven't found them.  And buddy, I don't care if you give me the greatest source in to world, the hoopla made up about WMD's never even came close to being realized. 

Let's try this again...  Let's follow your "lead" regarding reading comprehension this time.

"Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist." 
- Sen. Rick Santorum

Note the first sentence...

Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.

Call it "hoopla" or whatever other term you want to use to downplay the facts, these devices are in fact WMDs.  They were recovered, and they're still being recovered.  Even in their "degraded" state, these devices were quite deadly and violated every single one of the UN resolutions regarding Iraq since the first Gulf War. 

And buddy, I don't care if you give me the greatest source in to world...

Essentially, you're saying that no matter what facts or truths exist, it doesn't matter to you.  I guess those facts didn't really matter to these folks either, or at least, the facts don't matter for them anymore, huh?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/20/content_8017637.htm
And, that's just from the first Google results page from my search... 

U.S. and Iraqi security forces regularly discover mass graves in different parts of Iraq for people killed in chaos and sectarian violence since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

The UN seems to have a great track record dealing with murderous dictators and violent regimes.  By the way, are the victim's rotting corpses and skeletal remains "credible" enough for you?

[Saniflush]

The problem i see is one of definition....


I define WMD's as items that will kill lots of mutha fuckas.  Clearly chemical weapons fall into that category.

The media and most sheeple just assumed that WMD's meant there were nuclear warheads ready to be loaded on to the local scud and blindly launched toward someone.

Anyway the fucker needed to die.

[GarMan]

The problem i see is one of definition....

There's no doubt that definition and/or ignorance plays into this, but I thought that Colon Powell was pretty clear.  At least, I didn't have any doubts.  The article at the link below pretty much explains it. 

The first reaction from Washington was to calm speculation that the find would provide the trigger for war, and to deny that the warheads were "a smoking gun".

"A smoking gun would be if you found a big stockpile with chemicals," an official said.

I had no doubt that these warheads were the "smoking gun" we needed to initiate military action.  Of course, the "world community" and the American Left wouldn't see it.  They seemed to be waiting for a nuke, fueled and targeted at Washington DC. 

The other part of this is the "peace at all costs" movement.  It's sort of like that arrogant "UN Diplomacy" that was used in Rwanda, Haiti, Serbia and Bosnia.  You could have firing squads lining up civilians outside the gates of a UN base, and the UN wouldn't do a thing. 

[AWK]

My source comment was a sorta mock reference to the Fox News Article.  Needless to say, no Uranium was found and no active chemical weapons plants...

[GarMan]

The other part of this is the "peace at all costs" movement.  It's sort of like that arrogant "UN Diplomacy" that was used in Rwanda, Haiti, Serbia and Bosnia.  You could have firing squads lining up civilians outside the gates of a UN base, and the UN wouldn't do a thing. 

Wow...  It looks like the UN is doing another one of their bang-up jobs in Darfur too. 
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/04/22/darfur.holmes/index.html

I lost count at over 350,000 bodies found in mass graves throughout Iraq.  It seems that Darfur isn't too far behind with 200,000 dead.  I see that the UN is living up to it's responsibilities... again. 

[GarMan]

My source comment was a sorta mock reference to the Fox News Article.  Needless to say, no Uranium was found and no active chemical weapons plants...

So, let's try your logic here...  If someone planned to purchase 30 pounds of drugs, do you think it's still a crime if that person is unsuccessful?  What if that person had bongs, pipes, measuring scales and other paraphernalia typically utilized to facilitate use and distribution with trace residue of illegal narcotics?  I mean, the bongs, pipes, measuring scales and other items wouldn’t necessarily be “active” at the time... unless the drugs were obtained, that is. 

Liberal logic is so weak.    

[Tarheel]

...
Needless to say, no Uranium was found
...

AWK I respectfully refer you back to one of the articles that I posted yesterday on this subject...in fact Uranium WAS found in Baghdad...this article appeared in the "American Thinker" in 2005; the editors of this rag are not exactly friendly to the Bush Administration or the War in Iraq yet they pointedly report that uranium was there.

We interrupt this scandal to ask a question that, due to it's 'explosive' nature was never asked when the story broke almost exactly a year ago...

What were 500 tons of yellow cake uranium still doing at the nuclear research center of Al—Tuwaitha in Iraq when American tanks rolled into Bagdhad?
...

The article does go on to say that the uranium was supposedly under the IAEA supervision and seal (another reason that would explain why Saddam might have been seeking more fissile material from Niger).

Here, again, is the link:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/07/about_that_500_tons_of_yellow.html

[AWK]

So, let's try your logic here...  If someone planned to purchase 30 pounds of drugs, do you think it's still a crime if that person is unsuccessful?  What if that person had bongs, pipes, measuring scales and other paraphernalia typically utilized to facilitate use and distribution with trace residue of illegal narcotics?  I mean, the bongs, pipes, measuring scales and other items wouldn’t necessarily be “active” at the time... unless the drugs were obtained, that is. 

Liberal logic is so weak.    

Yeah, my logic is weak.  First, there is absolutely no positive proof that he tried to buy Uranium from Africa.  Second, we have found no enriched Uranium for weapons manufacturing, nothing even close a dirty bomb, or even anything found to link Iraq pre-war to attempt to be making any type of weapon with Uranium.  Using your hypo, there are no "bongs, pipes, measuring scales, and other items."

Tarhell mentions the Uranium below, but that wasn't even under the control of Saddam.

[Tarheel]

...
Tarhell mentions the Uranium below, but that wasn't even under the control of Saddam.

Ah, yes, that could be said to be true but possession is 9/10ths of ownership as it were...

The IAEA placed a seal on the nuclear materials in November of 1992. From then until the fall of Saddam, the agency attempted to make sure that Iraq did not use the yellow cake to reconstitute its nuclear program, something the IAEA acknowledged could be done if the Iraqis were able to rebuild its centrifuges and gain access to additional fissile material. Keeping track of the material was made extraordinarily difficult by the Iraqis who regularly impeded IAEA officials from carrying out even the most routine inspections.

As I recall Iraq finally told the IAEA inspectors to "fuck off"...which was one of the main reasons we went back to war with them.  The fact remains that uranium was found in Iraq and that they did negotiate with Niger for 'something'...probably onions I suppose...the Brits have never rescended their report that Iraq was negotiating with Niger for uranium.  And, in fact, the Senate intelligence report that I cited earlier agrees (regardless of what the US Main Stream Media reports...they also reported that Hillary won by double digits in PA last night...she won by 9.4 percent...that is not a double digit win.)

[GarMan]

Yeah, my logic is weak.  First, there is absolutely no positive proof that he tried to buy Uranium from Africa.  Second, we have found no enriched Uranium for weapons manufacturing, nothing even close a dirty bomb, or even anything found to link Iraq pre-war to attempt to be making any type of weapon with Uranium.  Using your hypo, there are no "bongs, pipes, measuring scales, and other items."

Well, according to Santorum's speech, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."  I would suspect that any reasonable person would recognize these devices as overwhelming evidence that Saddam failed to comply with the 14 UN Resolutions that were passed since the first Gulf War.  But, I suppose that's bunch o' "hoopla" in your book.  Facts don't have to matter if you set the rules for ignoring them.   

Just a quick point...  You don't need enriched Uranium to make a dirty bomb. 

[AWK]

Well, according to Santorum's speech, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."  I would suspect that any reasonable person would recognize these devices as overwhelming evidence that Saddam failed to comply with the 14 UN Resolutions that were passed since the first Gulf War.  But, I suppose that's bunch o' "hoopla" in your book.  Facts don't have to matter if you set the rules for ignoring them.   

Just a quick point...  You don't need enriched Uranium to make a dirty bomb. 

I don't know how to exactly make one, but for the sake of my future career I'm not going to google it.  EIther way, I assumed a bomb that killed many via radiation needed some sort of Uranium, or plutonium. 

[Thrilla]

You guys are going to love this shit...

I was at my favorite bar in Decatur last night.  It's called Twain's Billiards & Tap.  I go there frequently to drink their microbrews and play that addictive sand shuffleboard game.

We were minding our own business when we overhear some people talking about how Jimmy Carter is eating in the restaurant area.  I go over to look, and sure enough, there he is, in attendance for a birthday party as it appeared that there was lots of family there (about 16 at the table).

He looks old, and very, very tired. You couldn't go close to him as there were 3 secret service guys in the restaurant, with 2 more out front.  They were very obvious and imposing.

About 30 minutes after I made this discovery, I had to break the seal.  I walk in the bathroom, and was a little too buzzed to realize the secret service guy was standing by the entrance door.  As I pull up to my urinal, I realize that I'm about to take a piss next to a former president.

Thrilla:  "Well hi there, sir!  Never thought I'd meet you in this fashion".

Carter: "Well, everybody has to use the bathroom sooner or later"  (or something to that effect, again, I was buzzed and it was a little surreal)

Thrilla: "Glad to see you're back safe from your trip.  A lot of folks I know didn't think it would go off as easy as it did".

Carter: "Well, we accomplished what we set out for.  <ZZZIP>  Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to this birthday party I'm here for."

Thrilla:  "Have a good night, sir."

Carter:  "You too, son.  You're a fine American"  (No shit, he said that)

L-M-F-A-O!  I know some of you will rip me for being so cordial to him, but I couldn't really find the time to get into World Politics while having my dick in my hand.  He left about 30 minutes after that through the kitchen door, which (I assume) leads to the super-secret back exit. 

I then proceeded to get shitfaced.