Guns Up!!

Snaggletiger · « **Reply #60 on:** February 03, 2011, 04:46:46 PM »

Quote from: Godfather on February 03, 2011, 04:40:50 PM

Both schools of thought are right. CTT was not the end all be all that Kaos makes him out to be (he acknowledges that) but mostly comes on defend him against those that were in love with him and now consider him Terry Bowden esque in his tenure. Bottom line was that he brought us out of one of the worst coaching hires (outside of Barfield) and made our program relevant again.

His attrition rates for keeping players the last few years was bad, we had some really bad blow-out losses, he was very conservative. He had a tendency to be loyal (bad?)

He also won 6 Iron Bowls in a row and coached an Auburn team that could be considered one of the best in history. He had an 85-40 record (68%...Dye had a 71% WR), took us to a bowl game 8 out of the 10 years, winning 5. He graduated players.

I would say he did pretty much everything we asked of him. It was time for him to move on, and he did. I wish him well, he should always be in our books as a coach. I don't wish him ill and I really don't care about Texas Tech.

Other than that we have a new coach. Here is a picture of him:

Nuttz...dead.

JR4AU · « **Reply #61 on:** February 03, 2011, 04:57:13 PM »

Quote from: GH2001 on February 03, 2011, 04:44:18 PM

So what was the problem in 01? Ah yes, Noel Mazzone. Fired. Or 03? Ah, Nall just wasn't cutting it as oc. That's ok. Well demote him back down and bring in Borges. Wow, he's great...undefeated first season. Or end of 09 when Borges was fired? Wasn't he the problem? Or was he not just the savior in 04?

Look for the common denominators here.

While you're at it, look and see how that's any different from any other coach, or program out there. You can't win them all every year...using every season that didn't result in a championship as evidence he sux? Ok, then all coaches suck except at that moment they're just coming off a national championship.

Kaos · « **Reply #62 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:03:45 PM »

Chizik keeps his staff together. Awesome shit, baby. They love AU. Continuity. Damn straight!

Tuberville keeps his staff together. Fucking leeches. BBQ chowing bastards. Nobody wants them.

Ogre · « **Reply #63 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:11:27 PM »

Quote from: Kaos on February 03, 2011, 05:03:45 PM

Chizik keeps his staff together. Awesome shit, baby. They love AU. Continuity. Damn straight!

Tuberville keeps his staff together. Fucking leeches. BBQ chowing bastards. Nobody wants them.

The difference here is that I believe Chizik's staff overall is an upgrade from Tuberville's. That's not to say every coach is better, but I don't remember Hugh Nall getting interviewed at a school like Texas during his tenure at Auburn.

Plus, we haven't seen how Chizik will handle the loss of a coordinator yet.

Godfather · « **Reply #64 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:14:11 PM »

Quote from: Kaos on February 03, 2011, 05:03:45 PM

Chizik keeps his staff together. Awesome shit, baby. They love AU. Continuity. Damn straight!

Tuberville keeps his staff together. Fucking leeches. BBQ chowing bastards. Nobody wants them.

What the Ginger Ogre said, plus Tubs staff got complacent, same thing could happen with Chiziks staff. If it happens they needs to go.

and the only person I had a problem with on Tubs staff was Knox our WR coach and we had no offensive coordinator.

Kaos · « **Reply #65 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:18:34 PM »

Quote from: Godfather on February 03, 2011, 05:14:11 PM

What the Ginger Ogre said, plus Tubs staff got complacent, same thing could happen with Chiziks staff. If it happens they needs to go.

and the only person I had a problem with on Tubs staff was Knox our WR coach and we had no offensive coordinator.

Knox. Yep. Booooo!

Borges! Yay. Petrino! Yay.

But by the estimation of some, when you remove coordinators who don't function well or grow complacent, that's a weakness. A failure.

Godfather · « **Reply #66 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:20:59 PM »

Quote from: Godfather on February 03, 2011, 05:14:11 PM

we had no offensive coordinator.

I should clarify that I meant at the time of his demise/departure.

War Eagle!!! · « **Reply #67 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:25:12 PM »

I think a real test of Chizik will be when he loses Malzahn. Chizik has put together an unbelievable staff, but I would like to see how he hires the next guy. I hope it doesn't happen for at least two years, because I think we can make some noise again in 2012...

Godfather · « **Reply #68 on:** February 03, 2011, 05:39:57 PM »

Quote from: War Eagle!!! on February 03, 2011, 05:25:12 PM

I think a real test of Chizik will be when he loses Malzahn. Chizik has put together an unbelievable staff, but I would like to see how he hires the next guy. I hope it doesn't happen for at least two years, because I think we can make some noise again in 2012...

fuck da noise..I wants to bring da pain.

RWS · « **Reply #69 on:** February 03, 2011, 07:52:37 PM »

As much misery as CTT caused Alabama fans, I still would have loved to have him as a coach at Alabama at the time.

AuburnChopper 3.0 · « **Reply #70 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:00:09 PM »

Quote from: War Eagle!!! on February 03, 2011, 05:25:12 PM

I think a real test of Chizik will be when he loses Malzahn. Chizik has put together an unbelievable staff, but I would like to see how he hires the next guy. I hope it doesn't happen for at least two years, because I think we can make some noise again in 2012...

This is where I'm at with Chizik. I think he's the perfect ying to the yang, that is the lockstep type machine at Alabama. I believe he lives what he preaches. He's shown himself to be a much better CEO type coach in handling the program that probably ANY of us figured. However, I also believe that with that comes a lot of actual coaching support from an unbelievable staff. I think Tuberville was in a very similar situation in every regard, just like Chizik is now, except when it came time to hire, then rehire, then rehire again, it got progressively worse. The staff at the end clearly, CLEARLY did not have the chemistry it had in '04, or even '06 for that matter.

As far as the support, or lack of it, from trustees and others, I think once it got bad, it got bad from both sides. I fault both for acting like fools for the way that all went down. I also think it was that horrible taste in the mouth that lead most folks on here to NOT trust Jacobs when Chizik was hired. People didn't like the hire on it's own merit, but it was made even worse by the bullshit attitude around the athletic complex and program at the time.

I just think that the perceived laziness, tagged on Tuberville was actually a summation of a few years of genuine frustration as a whole. Saban's success in-state, lack of support from Auburn and it's trustees, trouble at home, you name it, Tuberville was dealing with it. He just didn't have a staff with the chemistry to over come it at the end, and everyone, including the fans suffered for it.

It was great times. It was bad times. Both sides here have merit to feel the way they do.

Personally, I'm glad it's over. I still sport my Tuberville autographed football, right next to my Chizik football, and look at them equally proud.

JMO...

Kaos · « **Reply #71 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:25:33 PM »

Quote from: AuburnChopper on February 03, 2011, 08:00:09 PM

I just think that the perceived laziness, tagged on Tuberville was actually a summation of a few years of genuine frustration as a whole.

11-2. 9-4.

Nobody was really frustrated until 5-8. Fact is, we went into 2008 thinking we had a great shot at winning the SEC and an outside shot at winning it all. Kodi Burns was going to be the next Dameyune Jason Sullivan Slack. With wheels. He'd proved that in the Chick-Fil-A. Franklin's wild and crazy offense was the final piece in the puzzle. It was going to give the tried and true Tuberville defense offensive production to match. We'd had two awesome years of recruiting and stomped Bama's ass into a mudhole on the trail. Would take them years and years to catch up no matter what Saban did. We were: Unstoppable.

Maybe you guys don't remember that. I damn sure do.

And that's what irks me the most. This "years of frustration" and "couldn't recruit" and all that other repetitive bullshit that some of you guys cling to like the last life raft on the Titanic? Yeah, that didn't show up until AFTER the loss to Vandy. THEN you knew it all along. THEN you'd been frustrated for years. THEN it had been building, he ate too much BBQ, he was too loyal to assistants (the same guys you were shitting your pants over fears they might leave -- except for Knox who we all wanted gone), he spent too much time duck hunting, blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-dah.

Maybe you don't remember. I damn sure do.

AuburnChopper 3.0 · « **Reply #72 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:30:45 PM »

Quote from: Kaos on February 03, 2011, 08:25:33 PM

11-2. 9-4.

Nobody was really frustrated until 5-8. Fact is, we went into 2008 thinking we had a great shot at winning the SEC and an outside shot at winning it all. Kodi Burns was going to be the next Dameyune Jason Sullivan Slack. With wheels. He'd proved that in the Chick-Fil-A. Franklin's wild and crazy offense was the final piece in the puzzle. It was going to give the tried and true Tuberville defense offensive production to match. We'd had two awesome years of recruiting and stomped Bama's ass into a mudhole on the trail. Would take them years and years to catch up no matter what Saban did. We were: Unstoppable.

Maybe you guys don't remember that. I damn sure do.

And that's what irks me the most. This "years of frustration" and "couldn't recruit" and all that other repetitive bullshit that some of you guys cling to like the last life raft on the Titanic? Yeah, that didn't show up until AFTER the loss to Vandy. THEN you knew it all along. THEN you'd been frustrated for years. THEN it had been building, he ate too much BBQ, he was too loyal to assistants (the same guys you were shitting your pants over fears they might leave -- except for Knox who we all wanted gone), he spent too much time duck hunting, blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-dah.

Maybe you don't remember. I damn sure do.

I remember. I agree with what you're saying even. My comment about "years of frustration" was in reference to Tuberville himself. He showed "years of frustration" at the end in my opinion. Probably for a wide variety of reasons.

I don't disagree with your statement about no-body really being frustrated until 5-8. I think it's just easy for some to say that it was heading that way because of the sometimes, too typical blow-out losses and ultra-conservative second halves that cost us in certain situations, even in years before 5-8.

GH2001 · « **Reply #73 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:45:05 PM »

Quote from: JR4AU on February 03, 2011, 04:57:13 PM

While you're at it, look and see how that's any different from any other coach, or program out there. You can't win them all every year...using every season that didn't result in a championship as evidence he sux? Ok, then all coaches suck except at that moment they're just coming off a national championship.

The point was that there was always that same stale group of folks he had around him he would refuse to part with. Everyone else seemed to get the ax though. He could have done the right thing at the end and cleaned house like Mack Brown, but nope. He wouldnt do it. Funny how Borges got the ax after a few good years but Nall fucked up and never lost his job once under Tubs. This is what I mean. Aka - the BBQ boys.

I think we agree here JR.

JR4AU · « **Reply #74 on:** February 03, 2011, 11:26:45 PM »

Quote from: GH2001 on February 03, 2011, 08:45:05 PM

The point was that there was always that same stale group of folks he had around him he would refuse to part with. Everyone else seemed to get the ax though. He could have done the right thing at the end and cleaned house like Mack Brown, but nope. He wouldnt do it. Funny how Borges got the ax after a few good years but Nall fucked up and never lost his job once under Tubs. This is what I mean. Aka - the BBQ boys.

I think we agree here JR.

My gripe was never with all those guys staying. However, in the end, they quit on him. I never thought they sucked, or couldn't coach, but in 2008, they mutinied on him and still thought they should survive it. THAT is where I got crossways with all those guys. And Tubs loyalty to them allowed that to happen. I think that's where Kevin misunderstands my stance on that loyalty. Keep the good ones around as long as they perform, but you can't be so loyal that you allow them to mutiny over a hire they disagreed with. They should have given it their all for 2008, then run Franklin off and started over, just like they did with the Nallsminger debacle in 2003. Nall was given his shot to run an offense, with some talent mind you, and it failed miserably. He of all should have been tolerant of an OC that he didn't agree with. If nothing else he just should have done the best job he could in 2008. Young though they were, that was mostly the same OL that was stellar this past year, and it wasn't because Nall couldn't coach them that they sucked in 2008, it was because he didn't coach them. Friends or not, that can't be tolerated, and that's all meant by undying loyalty, not that they should have been run off before that, except Knox of course.

BTW, Borges go the axe for a number of reasons, none of which I agreed with really. Namely being folks chirp a lot about "scheme" being to blame, and coordinators are the natural targets when things don't go like some think they should, despite the fact that Auburn was "down in 2007" with a 9-4 season. He was working with the least talent he'd had. The only players on that offense to win any awards or honors were Ziemba and Pugh, both Fr. Cox was playing injured a portion of the time. He had little to work with. And it was the beginning of the Saban era, and Tubs was trying to give recruiting a shot in the arm with a "novel" OC hire. Might possibly have been a good move, IF Tubs had let Franklin work and made the other coaches coach for him, but it was doomed to fail under the circumstances.

The Prowler · « **Reply #75 on:** February 04, 2011, 05:35:48 AM »

Hey Kaos...wanna bring up those recruiting classes again? He had two or three really good to great recruiting classes. Just take a quick look at them and you'll notice the players that didn't make it in were the ones that made it so highly ranked. Also, if you're going to bring up recruiting classes you should also take into account the needs for the classes. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, whenever you fail to bring in more than 3 quality offensive linemen in a three year span, you will have problems a few years down the road, which is where we are right now.

I remember us going up against the Troy Universities of the College World and saying that CTT will coach them up, we don't need top-tier players at Auburn. Yeah, whenever you have a coach like Knox or Ensminger, you had better have a fuck load of top-tier players at their position.

I really liked Coach Tuberville and defended him against all the bammers, but I grew very, very tired of him and/or Jimmy Sexton flirting around starting at the end of the '05 season. Remember the Arkansas News Stations saying that he was going to be announced as the new HC the next day and Coach Tuberville was off Hunting....in Arkansas? Yeah, that's when I decided that I'd had enough. I was somewhat happy that he didn't take the job, not so much because I wanted him back but because I loved seeing all of the little piggies with egg all over their faces. That's also when I started noticing a painful trend of signing a Top 15 class only to have about 30-40% of that class, that made it so great, not qualify. Also, Nick Fairley signed with Coach Chizik staff. He would've never ever become the player that we now remember him as, under Coach Tuberville. He would've been an Offensive Lineman.

GH2001 · « **Reply #76 on:** February 04, 2011, 08:55:44 AM »

Quote from: JR4AU on February 03, 2011, 11:26:45 PM

My gripe was never with all those guys staying. However, in the end, they quit on him. I never thought they sucked, or couldn't coach, but in 2008, they mutinied on him and still thought they should survive it. THAT is where I got crossways with all those guys. And Tubs loyalty to them allowed that to happen. I think that's where Kevin misunderstands my stance on that loyalty. Keep the good ones around as long as they perform, but you can't be so loyal that you allow them to mutiny over a hire they disagreed with. They should have given it their all for 2008, then run Franklin off and started over, just like they did with the Nallsminger debacle in 2003. Nall was given his shot to run an offense, with some talent mind you, and it failed miserably. He of all should have been tolerant of an OC that he didn't agree with. If nothing else he just should have done the best job he could in 2008. Young though they were, that was mostly the same OL that was stellar this past year, and it wasn't because Nall couldn't coach them that they sucked in 2008, it was because he didn't coach them. Friends or not, that can't be tolerated, and that's all meant by undying loyalty, not that they should have been run off before that, except Knox of course.

BTW, Borges go the axe for a number of reasons, none of which I agreed with really. Namely being folks chirp a lot about "scheme" being to blame, and coordinators are the natural targets when things don't go like some think they should, despite the fact that Auburn was "down in 2007" with a 9-4 season. He was working with the least talent he'd had. The only players on that offense to win any awards or honors were Ziemba and Pugh, both Fr. Cox was playing injured a portion of the time. He had little to work with. And it was the beginning of the Saban era, and Tubs was trying to give recruiting a shot in the arm with a "novel" OC hire. Might possibly have been a good move, IF Tubs had let Franklin work and made the other coaches coach for him, but it was doomed to fail under the circumstances.

Winner

So, how bout that nc eh? We got us a pretty good program now.

Godfather · « **Reply #77 on:** February 04, 2011, 09:27:24 AM »

Quote from: Kaos on February 03, 2011, 08:25:33 PM

Nobody was really frustrated until 5-8. Fact is, we went into 2008 thinking we had a great shot at winning the SEC and an outside shot at winning it all. Kodi Burns was going to be the next Dameyune Jason Sullivan Slack. With wheels. He'd proved that in the Chick-Fil-A. Franklin's wild and crazy offense was the final piece in the puzzle. It was going to give the tried and true Tuberville defense offensive production to match. We'd had two awesome years of recruiting and stomped Bama's ass into a mudhole on the trail. Would take them years and years to catch up no matter what Saban did. We were: Unstoppable.

This was definitely true...I was on that bus. Everyone was on that bus cept for one Franklin hater, he turned out to be right, what happened to that guy? He is 1-1 on offensive coordinators.

Kaos · « **Reply #78 on:** February 04, 2011, 10:20:46 AM »

Quote from: Godfather on February 04, 2011, 09:27:24 AM

This was definitely true...I was on that bus. Everyone was on that bus cept for one Franklin hater, he turned out to be right, what happened to that guy? He is 1-1 on offensive coordinators.

More like 5-2. Was leery of Sullivan coming back, too. Wasn't he OC?

With Malzahn was more like.... Temper the rabid optimism. We've already crashed that bus into the hillside once and there were no survivors. Not even Franklinstein. Show something first. And even last year, it worked like gangbusters against tepid teams but went into a fetal shell against LSU, Bama, Kentucky even.

After the Franklin debacle? I wanted to see it work on a big stage against a capable defense. Running up the yardage on Wayward Wesleyan didn't mean that much if you were going to turn into Urkel against Arkansas.

Final (maybe?) note? Nobody in the world is happier over a national championship. Glad to be there and have the title. Smart enough to realize, though, that sometimes those things are arbitrary. I've watched numerous Auburn teams that were good enough, many that deserved the chance but for various reasons, some of their own doing, never got that opportunity. 1983, 1988, 1993, 2004 obviously, but there were others too. Winning the NC is as much about timing and luck as it is anything else. This was our time. But it's not the be-all, end-all of what Auburn is about. It's something I can happily use to shut up bama yapping, but just saying "championship" doesn't cement anything when you're talking about Auburn's history.

War Eagle!!! · « **Reply #79 on:** February 04, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »

Quote from: Kaos on February 04, 2011, 10:20:46 AM

And even last year, it worked like gangbusters against tepid teams but went into a fetal shell against LSU, Bama, Kentucky even.

Say whaaaa?

Auburn had 400 + rushing against LSU.

Auburn scored at will on Kentucky in the first half, and then went to sleep for some reason until the final drive.

And I honestly don;t think the Patriots could have scored against Bama in the first quarter. They were on fire. However, after they shot their wad and everything equaled out, Auburn was able to run their offense.

I will say this though. It was more because of Cam than anything. That guy could just hurt you in a bunch of different ways. Hell, I think I could have been calling the plays and Cam would have won the Heisman...